Crane Slings

[DMc]

for the same reason you tie in twice...

I think a more accurate analogy would be climbing lines, as in, do you use 2 every time you climb or just when the situation makes it prudent?

 

[MasterBlaster]

Word.

I've never had a lift fail, one way or the other.

 

[Jomo]

While there are situations where balancing limbs n logs in close proximity to targets is indeed demanded, IME those situations are few and rare.

I too am a single choker kinda guy simply because time is money, particularly when removing trees with an out of house rental crane.

But there are other reasons for spurning big fat wide balanced picks, in that their path/window to ground will also be big fat n wide, making it cumbersome for the CO to get the pick to ground without brushing targets along the way, sucking up even more time.

Single choker picks that are vertically oriented once cut have a wider n faster path to ground IME. Got a long lateral to pick? Place the choker at the tip and stand it up n away.

I do use double chokers quite often on co dominate picks, but they too are always vertically oriented almost invariably.

Jomo

 

[No_Bivy]

I think a more accurate analogy would be climbing lines, as in, do you use 2 every time you climb or just when the situation makes it

I'm guessing you don't have crane experience.

Once you spider leg you won't go back.

Time is money.....but safety is paramount

Both accidents here were for the same reason. Load began to flip.....then broke.....fell onto climber. Spider pegs or multiple attachments would have prevented


But hey, throw the dice......win or lose. Then your ego bitch slaps you.....

 

[woodworkingboy]

I don't at all see the single choker approach as a better way to get broad limbed picks to the ground. Multiple attachments reduce twist or tipping by evening out the load. Have seen it time and time again in crane work, with spider legs being a much more gentle way to get the load settled onto the ropes and moving where you want.. It reduces the level of concern for both the operator and the climber.

 

[DMc]

...I'm guessing you don't have crane experience...Once you spider leg you won't go back... Then your ego bitch slaps you.....

Wow! Talk about ego. Believe it or not but there are climbers, myself being one, that will use whatever is needed for the situation at hand, even on a crane job and yes I have indeed done 1 or 2.

 

[Jomo]

It all depends on the situation, species of tree, whether it's alive n healthy, or dead for years brittle n hollow, that dictates how you rig n pick it.

This dead oak was many years dead, hollow n brittle, and all over the client's home. So I used a 90 ton crane with two working balls n hooks. One for me, and one for the picks. Tedious n time consuming, but I had no intention of relying on that dead tree as a TIP whatsoever until it was a twenty foot tall trunk.

 

[Jomo]

You could literally see right right through the trunk from the stairs.

 

[MasterBlaster]

If anyone has a problem using just one sling, I can help them.

Just give me the scenario - I'll talk you through it.

Spider slings are just a gimmick invented to make money.

Lots of gimmicks in the treework biz. Some are great, others... not so much.

 

[Jomo]

Hollow enough to break out spider legs n the works!

But had it been alive healthy n sound? It would have been a single steel choker affair n over in a couple hours instead of an all day long removal.

 

[chris_girard]

Because if you do it right you don't need it.

Thank you Butch, you took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Spider legs aren't a gimmick to make money, if you have seen the advantages with using them and make them up yourself. A person like MB with his experience, I wouldn't begin to try and convince to use something that he questions the merits of, but for the sake of discussion, I can say that I know a few different long at the game tree outfits that have gone from using a single choker method to using multiple attachments on a regular basis, after seeing how they work on broad trees.

A tree like the dead oak and wanting to take fairly large picks with limbs, simple half hitch each leg of a multiple attachment rig around a larger limb that you deem reasonably secure, then fasten off the remainder of the leg low around the trunk with no slack. With three legs you have six points of attachment going, acting both as a balancing act and backup if a limb should give, and also distributing the weight and mainly holding it down at the trunk. I would dare the pick to break free and fall, I just can't see it happening. You want to drive the pick through another tree, who knows, but a gentle lift off with little tilt or twist and settling to the ground by the crane, I'm not losing sleep. Even with some strange act from God, you aren't going to lose the thing. Safety precludes bravery...

 

[chris_girard]

Wow! Talk about ego. Believe it or not but there are climbers, myself being one, that will use whatever is needed for the situation at hand, even on a crane job and yes I have indeed done 1 or 2.

I agree with you David and Jomo. The tree and the job will dictate how's its going to be removed. "Spider legs" just for the sake of using them makes about as much sense as using 2 lowering lines for rigging a piece down when you know the size of the piece and approx. how much they weigh. and you know that one line will be fine. And, Yes, I know all about using DWT's and when they are necessary.

My crane operator (CO) and myself always take into account picks with the potential for slight tipping and shocking loading and he's a climber as well with over 40 years of crane experience. These guys were pioneers in New England doing tree work with cranes doing all Bartlett's crane business for years. My CO's father started the business in 1957 and they're still going strong. As a matter of fact, he's 79 and still will run the crane on small jobs. Never had an accident with a single choker pick in nearly 60 years.

I've been to many, many crane seminars over the years, but the crew that I contract climb for, REALLY opened my eyes to the proper ways of single choker use. Do we ever use more than one? Of course we do, but ONLY when necessary, not for the sake of making a pretty, balanced pick on every lift. These guys know their 1500 National crane inside and out and when they tell me to take a particular piece in a specific way, I listen. Its been a real eye opener for me climbing for them 3 days a week for the last few weeks.

Spider legs for the majority of lifts are WAY overrated and overkill, IMHO.

 

[chris_girard]

Spider legs aren't a gimmick to make money, if you have seen the advantages with using them and make them up yourself. A person like MB with his experience, I wouldn't begin to try and convince to use something that he questions the merits of, but for the sake of discussion, I can say that I know a few different long at the game tree outfits that have gone from using a single choker method to using multiple attachments on a regular basis, after seeing how they work on broad trees.

A tree like the dead oak and wanting to take fairly large picks with limbs, simple half hitch each leg of a multiple attachment rig around a larger limb that you deem reasonably secure, then fasten off the remainder of the leg low around the trunk with no slack. With three legs you have six points of attachment going, acting both as a balancing act and backup if a limb should give, and also distributing the weight and mainly holding it down at the trunk. I would dare the pick to break free and fall, I just can't see it happening. You want to drive the pick through another tree, who knows, but a gentle lift off with little tilt or twist and settling to the ground by the crane, I'm not losing sleep. Even with some strange act from God, you aren't going to lose the thing. Safety precludes bravery...

Like I said, I have been to many, many crane seminars, taken tons of multiple sling picks and have seen the merits of them and I'm always impressed by how smooth the picks come off. I know when to use them and when not to, but I am a production climber, owner and subcontractor and when I contract climb for other companies, I am not going to waste their time or mine trying to impress them will balanced spider legs picks every time when its not needed. If the tree is really dead, near wires, or decurrent, then that is a different story.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but will not try and change something that's been working for this company for decades and making them money. And I know that Butch knows all about spider legs and agrees that for the majority of lifts, they just aren't necessary, no matter how pretty and smooth they are.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I agree with your premise, Chris, to only use what is necessary. Our spider legs are three legged, and two often suffice, where one might as well. i can't agree with the statement that a spider leg arrangement can be made non essential all the time by a single attachment (you didn't say that), and if you want to get a tree disassembled in a hurry with larger picks, often multiple legs will better allow that, imo. A climber's time measured against taking larger picks, the equation can vary.

 

[chris_girard]

and if you want to get a tree disassembled in a hurry with larger picks, often multiple legs will better allow that, imo.

I totally agree, BUT only if you have the landing zone for it. Here in the hilly country of NH, most of our lots are postage stamp size and we are forced to take smaller picks sometimes, even when we don't want too.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Another negative for spider legs is the guy on the ground not infrequently having to do gymnastics to get everything untied, especially with the half hitches also around the limbs and with wide spreads.

 

[chris_girard]

Agreed, good point.

 

[No_Bivy]

1 or 2...my bad

all I'm saying is this....I would wager to say that over time the industry standard will be more then one attachment. Trying train a climber to guess where to put single choker is sketchy.

I used to just single choke everything.....then i saw the light.


to each is own....carry on

 

[cory]

Jon, what's up with all the leaves on that oak that had been dead for years.

 

[Jomo]

Quercus agrifolia Cory, coastal live oaks are evergreen, and hold their leaves for a few years even when dead.

Grade change due to construction around its base slowly stressed it out, and phytopthera, or sudden oak death polished it off.

That tree had a surprise waiting for me in its trunk about 30 feet up, a bee hive, unfortunately I had to kill the whole hive by screening them in and poisoning them. Had the whole 6 man crew jumping about for a while. The CO was highly allergic to bee stings, but had an air conditioned cab to lock himself in to avoid being stung. I was the only one stung that day. Picked the entire trunk section containing the hive and set it aside. Only shut the crew down for about half an hour.

Jomo

 

[Jomo]

My dirtiest little non-ISA approved technique for speeding things up performing crane removals?

Bell n ball quick connect logging chokers to pick the small-medium stuff. They really do speed operations up a lot.

http://www.westechrigging.com/wire-rope-logging-chokers.html

Though they are most definitely not approved for overhead work by any regulatory agency that I know of, their use is pretty widespread in this industry for crane removals. They've never failed me once, and I've used them for small stuff on many thousands of crane removals over my career.

Jomo

 

[sotc]

I agree with your premise, Chris, to only use what is necessary. Our spider legs are three legged, and two often suffice, where one might as well. i can't agree with the statement that a spider leg arrangement can be made non essential all the time by a single attachment (you didn't say that), and if you want to get a tree disassembled in a hurry with larger picks, often multiple legs will better allow that, imo. A climber's time measured against taking larger picks, the equation can vary.

I agree with you David and Jomo. The tree and the job will dictate how's its going to be removed. "Spider legs" just for the sake of using them makes about as much sense as using 2 lowering lines for rigging a piece down when you know the size of the piece and approx. how much they weigh. and you know that one line will be fine. And, Yes, I know all about using DWT's and when they are necessary.

My crane operator (CO) and myself always take into account picks with the potential for slight tipping and shocking loading and he's a climber as well with over 40 years of crane experience. These guys were pioneers in New England doing tree work with cranes doing all Bartlett's crane business for years. My CO's father started the business in 1957 and they're still going strong. As a matter of fact, he's 79 and still will run the crane on small jobs. Never had an accident with a single choker pick in nearly 60 years.

I've been to many, many crane seminars over the years, but the crew that I contract climb for, REALLY opened my eyes to the proper ways of single choker use. Do we ever use more than one? Of course we do, but ONLY when necessary, not for the sake of making a pretty, balanced pick on every lift. These guys know their 1500 National crane inside and out and when they tell me to take a particular piece in a specific way, I listen. Its been a real eye opener for me climbing for them 3 days a week for the last few weeks.

Spider legs for the majority of lifts are WAY overrated and overkill, IMHO.

 

[sotc]

Bell and nubbin

 

[chris_girard]

Good discussion all around guys. I respect and appreciate everyone's opinion and thoughts, thanks for the info.