Chainsaw safety

[Eric H-L]

Disclaimer: I am a recreational climber. I have done some homeowner bucking of fallen limbs, but not a lot of saw experience. Looking for opinions on chainsaw use I witnessed today. My neighbor was having some tree work done by an outfit without a chipper. The ground crew was able to get an amazing amount of foliage into a large trailer. After filling it with brush two workers climbed into the trailer and used their saws to shred the brush. This was repeated several times. My wife has never learned anything about chainsaws and she immediately thought it looked very unsafe. I had to agree that the operators seemed to have very insecure footing standing on the brush. I was also concerned that they probably could not see the tips of their saws poking them into the brush. I did not get any video of this low cost chipper alternative but I do have video of them natural crotch rigging.

 

[Altissimus]

Done it a bunch you have to be careful

 

[lxskllr]

I've broken down branch piles like that. I don't know about "very unsafe", but it depends. Danger level definitely increases. Also derails chains easier.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

I did that too at the beginning in my small trailer, but mainly as a routine in a13 cubic yards dumpster before the guy invested in a chipper. It can be seen as a cheap chipper and it works but it's a pain in the ass. It's loud, very slow, nasty by the exhaust fumes staying around and it murders the chain.
The efficacy depends on how you stack the brush and how you cut. Cut all the crotches first before piling, put aside the diameters over 5" and stack the brushes neatly. Crush them by walking on them to make a compact layer as thick as the bar's size. Just a good preparation already gives easily a serious reduction in volume. Then cut the brush mat with the full bar verticaly in a serie of parallel cuts across the whole trailer. A spacing of the cuts about 8" gives a good volume reduction for the amount of cuts done. For example, a pile of spruce already neatly stacked and crushed down can have its volume still reduced by half. By a lot more cutting (x2 at least), you can reduce a bit further but not much. Keeping the crotches and the big diameters with a random piling and a random cutting leaves plenty of void in the stack and gives the worse experience cutting.

Of course you will hit the sides and the bottom with the chainsaw, no matter how cautious you want to be. It can kickback if you hit an edge or a joint, not much if it's in the plain steel panel. It isn't quite discreet and you can't act as if nothing happened, all the people around hears it, LOL.
At some moments, the chain will be stuck or/and derail but a neat stacking and doing regular slices reduce these points seriously. The worse is for the chain itself. The cutting links are rocking back and forth when they enter and leave each piece of wood. That's a lot more than the normal use and the rivets and links wear at a fast rate. On a ms200T, I have seen a brand new chain being unusable at the end of the day, no more room for tensioning. Keeping the chain well adjusted helps.
Last unpleasant point, the chain will likely throw some wood bits directly to your fingers. That hurts.

The chipper is a marvelous improvement.

 

[SeanKroll]

Chippers are great.


Minching brush can be very safe and effective for small brush, saving bigger pieces for the top layer.

People are the dangerous element. Some people need bagel cutting machines.

Sometimes I can get my trailer into places by truck or mini loader that I can't get my chipper and chip truck into or more importantly out from.

You start from outside the trailer, then as you climb in, keep the saw low, use a 20" bar, standing on what has already been cut. don't try to get every last bit cut to the bottom or sides.

I did this recently, loading with my mini-loader, unloading with my neighbor's log loader into my brush pile that will be picked up by a grapple truck next year.

Couldn't have done this tight access job with chipper and chip truck, and was easier than me feeding it into the chipper. All my tools ride in my pickup, and I was solo, so no second driver, and it was out of my normal, minimal distance service area in a fancy, waterfront neighborhood, connected by referral from an existing customer.


Again, chipper are great.

 

[Eric H-L]

@SeanKroll you answered a couple questions I had: “how to unload a trailer and how to get rid of brush.” Where does the grapple take your brush once a year?

 

[Eric H-L]

Thanks @Marc-Antoine and @SeanKroll for the detailed info about mincing brush in a container. Between the two of you a lot of pros and cons mentioned.

 

[lxskllr]

If it was something that was frequently done, they make tip guards for consumer saws. I think all my echoes came with one. Kind of ridiculous for a typically used saw, but it would be reasonable for breaking down brush or slashing brush in the woods where you're just doing little stuff, and no boring. Especially on a trailer, it would help keep the nose off metal. You can see it on the 490 I recently got. It's been removed...

 

[SeanKroll]

@SeanKroll you answered a couple questions I had: “how to unload a trailer and how to get rid of brush.” Where does the grapple take your brush once a year?

A tub grinder.

Manually unloading a minced up trailer-load is easy enough, but boring.

A preplaced rope or two to cinch around the brush, then attach to another truck or stationary object and drive the load out helps.

A BMG unloads it easily enough.

The log loader was a Champ!
I fit a 34" x100'+ of doug-fir in two loads in a 6x12 trailer. First load was worth 2.5' sides, second was taller, with 4' alturnamat sides (didn't remember for the first load before starting).

 

[stikine]

If it was something that was frequently done, they make tip guards for consumer saws. I think all my echoes came with one. Kind of ridiculous for a typically used saw, but it would be reasonable for breaking down brush or slashing brush in the woods where you're just doing little stuff, and no boring. Especially on a trailer, it would help keep the nose off metal. You can see it on the 490 I recently got. It's been removed...

Good to see the plywood rear window is still working

 

[lxskllr]

I'll have you know, that's fine handcrafted spruce!

 

[Altissimus]

I've had to chop down brush on alot of jobs in and out the trailer ... speaking of plywood there are several holes in the sides of my trailer where the saw has gone through , usually never hit the bed as leaving the bottom layer long is the easiest unload. One time I was chopping in a friend's dump truck and sure enough hit the corner steel at full throttle, only wrecked two teeth but it actually took a small piece out the bar.

 

[SeanKroll]

Re: natural crotch rigging

Shiny gear suppliers hate it. Rather sell lots of gear.
Some ropes hate it.
Some trees are not suited for it.
Some ropes don't care much, and are meant to be used and replaced like PPE and saw chain.

 

[Bermy]

I've done it...full ppe and knowledge of the dangers, in the days before a chipper.
Works well.

 

[Nutball]

You can fit an amazing amount in a trailer or even the bed of a truck using this method. The Echo bar tip shield is a great idea if it goes through the brush well enough, but otherwise just avoid the sides, it's not hard. I like to put a layer of thicker logs on the bottom to protect the chain from hitting bottom. I have not ever noticed any significant wear on the chain from what I remember, but chain derailing is common. You could probably make a guard out of sheet metal that covers the chain on the top of the bar enough to keep sticks from lifting the chain and popping it off the tip. Such a guard would only need to extend high enough to cover the rivets, and not necessarily the cutters. I prefer a big saw for powering through the brush quickly as smaller saws have trouble and take a while, but the big ones wear you out. The exhaust is miserable too. Getting the edges of the trailer packed is the hard part, so they should be the main places for brush to be placed. I also let branches stick out the front a good 1/3 of the way, then fold them back over to help fill in the front side.

 

[SeanKroll]

I've never thrown a chain that i can remember. Full throttle, stop moving the b/c, let the chain stop, remove the b/c from the brush.

We used go do this, while building, to compact wild land burn piles on fuel reduction projects.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

I think that the bar tip's protection would be always in the way. The bar is usually fully buried in the stack and has to work as in a big trunk, See it as cutting a slice of a big cake. it isn't like limbing or bucking You really cut a kerf through the mix of wood-twigs-leaves and some (rather many) bits of wood deep inside the pile are at the max reach of the bar and are only partially cut. So, anything on the side and the tip of the bar will not allow it to move and even will prevent to go down.
I guess that with a loose pile in the wild, we can manage to sneak the tip's shield in the voids between the sticks. But I bet I'd be very quickly upset by having to fight to find a path, if there is a path.

From what I saw, throwing a chain doesn't happen at the tip, but on the side, usually by a stick closing on the chain and being pulled away by the rotation. Of course this kerf doesn't stay in line with the others and that pushes the chain out. It happens a lot more in the loose piles of brush where the sticks have plenty of room to move. If you prepare an already well compacted layer of limbs, the sticks stay more or less in place and keep more easily the kerfs alligned. Some will jam the chain but that's it.

 

[Treeaddict]

I’ve done it. Just did it 2 days ago. I’m glad it’s not considered taboo! I use smaller saws and make darn sure my left arm is locked. While I’m always vigilant, I give this scenario extreme attention.

 

[biggun]

Done it loads. Treat the chainsaw like a lightsaber, you’ll be all right.

Joke.

Just make sure the head and neck are out of line of the arc, should kickback occur. Try not to cut the bottom of the trailer. You will hear it and know.

 

[SeanKroll]

I think it's like a directional lightsaber, with a hot muffler.


You definitely do not want a smouldering ember to start. Driving down the road could turn into an inferno.

It's that time of year.

 

[Treeaddict]

Just used that trick again today! Left all the vines (wild grape) in the woods behind some tall weeds because the dump won’t take them. Chopped the pile down really small.

 

[Magnus]

Trowing chain, kickback etc is usually not something that kills, but with long bars, bigger saws it can hurt you real bad and even kill you.
Good reasons not to stand behind saw when bucking/cutting down.
I try to keep right arm and shoulder lined up with rear handle on the larger saws so if something grow wings and come flying, I am not in the way.

 

[GASoline71]

Back when I was still active in the biz, we did this a lot too. With some of the bigger stuff (like really long and fat Doug Fir limbs), we would do it in a pile on the ground and have a bucket scoop it all up and into a dump trailer or a pickup bed. We were just a 2 man show. I personally never had any issues doing it, but I can see where it could be pretty unsafe if done in a reckless manner.

Gary

 

[Eric H-L]

Thanks for all the information. Is there a slang name for this technique? I am still too inexperienced to risk it, but now I won’t judge others who are slicing up their foliage. Another reason for me not to consider it is I deal with such small quantity. Sometimes I use a handsaw and pruners to make foliage fit in the back of a pickup better. I think I got this idea from
Silky Fox over on Arbtalk. If you have not read it yet, he has a very entertaining “rags to riches” post starting on August 16 2012. I think Biggun makes an appearance on August 17 2012. In Desperate times...My Silky saves the day! - https://arbtalk.co.uk/forums/topic/45443-in-desperate-timesmy-silky-saves-the-day/

 

[Eric H-L]

2 year follow up. I posted about the technique the tree company used to reduce volume of the brush in the trailer. A couple of things I did not mention, then. As a favor, I fixed the yard light which was as damaged by the codominant leader falling in the driveway. I am guessing that the tree trimmer offered to remove the tree but my neighbor refused and only wanted the broken and hung up one dealt with. Today a second of the the three codoms landed on the same light. They have sold the house but not closed!