treelooker
Treehouser
Gotta agree ! I'm all for thinking, and working, outside the box.
But it makes sense to first look inside the box.
Bolting a Tree
- Thread starter Old Monkey
- Start date
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But it makes sense to first look inside the box.
wiley_p
Climbing Up
Darin, as always your wisdom shines thru. One of the oddities of our work, as in forestry we are often long gone or forgotten by the time the impact of our work is realized. Right or wrong.
This industry is in such a state of flux, really we are still quite ignorant of proper urban tree care. In reality we have barely graduated past skilled woodcutters and riggers aloft.
Darin, I actually admire your thoughtful and insightful posts. So I appreciate that you are always searching for better answers on things that we might take for granted.
In this particular instance the bolt bracing of a tree, here is some more information to think about for an informed decision.
When a tree experiences mechanical injury (abiotic), even more so than a pathogenic attack (biotic) codit is activated. So when you drill a hole and place a bolt all the tissues involved become isolated from the remainder of the tree (to the best of its ability) by Wall 4. If left alone over a period of time if your work is successful, the tree will grow on and the bolt will be but a distant memory. But if you remove the nut and try to loosen the bolt every year or two, you will be reinjuring fresh tissue requiring the tree to start the process all over again.
The trees that you removed that had rotted out from bracing were poor candidates or the bracing was poorly done or both. I have cut down many trees that were braced where the bolts were completely healed over and the only reference was discolored wood (not decayed).
There has been some reference made of the poor smucks who will have to remove these trees some day in the future running into this hidden steel. Let me remind you that those poor smucks might be you or one of your grand kids and for this reason, I think trees with hardware should be tagged with the locations marked of the hardware spacing. I think it is only fair to give the future smuck at least half a chance to have a good day.
Dave
In this particular instance the bolt bracing of a tree, here is some more information to think about for an informed decision.
When a tree experiences mechanical injury (abiotic), even more so than a pathogenic attack (biotic) codit is activated. So when you drill a hole and place a bolt all the tissues involved become isolated from the remainder of the tree (to the best of its ability) by Wall 4. If left alone over a period of time if your work is successful, the tree will grow on and the bolt will be but a distant memory. But if you remove the nut and try to loosen the bolt every year or two, you will be reinjuring fresh tissue requiring the tree to start the process all over again.
The trees that you removed that had rotted out from bracing were poor candidates or the bracing was poorly done or both. I have cut down many trees that were braced where the bolts were completely healed over and the only reference was discolored wood (not decayed).
There has been some reference made of the poor smucks who will have to remove these trees some day in the future running into this hidden steel. Let me remind you that those poor smucks might be you or one of your grand kids and for this reason, I think trees with hardware should be tagged with the locations marked of the hardware spacing. I think it is only fair to give the future smuck at least half a chance to have a good day.
Dave
Old Monkey
Treehouser
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Thanks for that post. How would you tag it to show where the bolt was ten or twenty years from now? If the bolt was left long and never backed off like my much maligned plan, would the tree face more damage and decay from a protruding bolt? Just curious.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
often times theres charicteristics (sp) in the wood tht tell you somethings there, if not its usually just a "dang it there goes a chain" and you cut around it with the next one. im afraid that if you do it and dont follw bmp's the tree will feel like an outcast and you wil spend a fotune on councilling for it
N
Newfie
Guest
And most HMO's don't cover tree therapy anymore.
Darin, your welcome. Before I get mistaken for somebody who is organized, I haven't actually done this. I can't even remember the last time I braced a tree.
What brought this idea to mind was the Tree Tag Inspection Record as seen in Sherrill. Where cables at least stay visible, bracing hardware tends to disappear. It's why your good landscapers will leave an irrigation map with their clients showing where the piping runs. So us stump grinders can spend less time doing pipe repair.
On the tags I would just write in the vertical spacing of your rods with the tag placed either at the highest or lowest (with that designation written in).
Dave
What brought this idea to mind was the Tree Tag Inspection Record as seen in Sherrill. Where cables at least stay visible, bracing hardware tends to disappear. It's why your good landscapers will leave an irrigation map with their clients showing where the piping runs. So us stump grinders can spend less time doing pipe repair.
On the tags I would just write in the vertical spacing of your rods with the tag placed either at the highest or lowest (with that designation written in).
Dave
treelooker
Treehouser
Che
Treehouser
Question from the sidelines: Does the material of the bolt matter, or are they all stainless steel?
sotc
Dormant hero!!
i try to get grade 8, stronger than stainless
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I've never cabled/bolted with stainless steel bolts.
Che
Treehouser
I'm not suggesting they ARE used....just wondering outloud if the reaction to ( or lack of reaction to) the metals is ever a factor in speed/efficiency of callousing.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I'm no expert, but I wouldn't think so.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
I don't know metallurgy... I would like to know if grade 8 contains any alloys or metals that would inevitably hurt the tree ie: copper.
I seem to find a lot of trees that die out (oaks especially) that have had metal in contact with them .
I seem to find a lot of trees that die out (oaks especially) that have had metal in contact with them .
Che, my Uncle braced some Modesto Ash trees in the mid 1960's and the trees grew around the bolts and have never split apart. He put all-thread which I believe is mild steel and wasn't coated. The all thread may have been galvanized but I don't think so. They like all modesto ashs had included bark crotches and this is why he was worried about them. They grew over the bolts and who knows what kind of shape they are in now, but the trees are huge and still together 40 years later.
M
Mr. Sir
Guest
Another side note: Copper does not hurt trees. How did that myth begin and why is it so widespread? 
SkwerI
Treehouser
Brett, people make up all sorts of stupid things to believe. I remember somebody posting once that the bar oil residue on their saws would cause corrosion if it wasn't cleaned off before storage. Imagine that, oil causing corrosion! 
sotc
Dormant hero!!
haha, you never knew that brian
treelooker
Treehouser
Only on thick-barked trees, and to the sapwood, not just the cambium.
Nothing is said about a second nut. Other options like locknuts and locking fluid are suggested. Peening is preferred. There is never any reason to back off the nut, as noted by Brian and others.
Your options are to
1. Carefully read and consider the experience of the many arborists who wrote the BMP, or
2. Carelessly misquote, exaggerate, disregard and mock it.
your call.
SkwerI
Treehouser
Peening is hitting the end of the threaded rod with a ball peen hammer (or any hammer) to deform the end so the nut can't come off.
You cut the end of the bolt off close to the nut and then hit the edge of the bolt with a hammer squishing the metal out. This messes up the threads on the bolt enough so that if the nut tries to back off it will be stopped by the squished out metal. Not to be confused with Squisher the guy who likes to snowplow until he actually has to snowplow.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Your options are to
1. Carefully read and consider the experience of the many arborists who wrote the BMP, or
2. Carelessly misquote, exaggerate, disregard and mock it.
your call.
3. or to experiment on a tree that will need to be removed in a few years and a) learn something new or b) prove us right
