M
Mr. Sir
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #26
I suppose one would have to do a hardness test on them. I'll send them back to Sherrill and wait for the verdict.
F
Frans
Guest
Wow! Never have seen that before. Been over 20 years of working some of the nastiest chippers. Chipped dead euc, oak, madrone, you name it. Never had that kind of bend. Blew up/shattered 'em before.
With all due respect, my information comes from Zenith itself. This was over two years ago so they may have changed.
They also told me that only a few of the larger chipper knives were sourced from the U.S. the rest were born and raised in Vietnam. Prob. made from recycled cars sent there from here
With all due respect, my information comes from Zenith itself. This was over two years ago so they may have changed.
They also told me that only a few of the larger chipper knives were sourced from the U.S. the rest were born and raised in Vietnam. Prob. made from recycled cars sent there from here
tntree
Just slice it
That's something I never have seen in 25 years, Wow!
N
NeTree
Guest
If you don't like Sherrill's verdict, send them to me. I'll even tell you the exact chemical composition.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I always knew you were from another planet, lol.
F
Frans
Guest
N
NeTree
Guest
sotc
Dormant hero!!
i wouldnt send them all, keep 2 in case they get "lost"
B
Bounce
Guest
I hope this doesn't derail this thread, but I need to clear something up. Zenith knives are made to exact same standards that all chipper knives are. They are made from "chipper steel", which by definition has a hardness rating of A8. This type of steel has a high carbon and chrome content, and has been heat treated and annealed 3 times. At the cutting edge, Zenith knives have a Rockwell hardness rating of 56-58. In the center near the bolt holes, the Rockwell hardness rating needs to be in the mid 40's to prevent shattering. Zenith is an ISO 9001 certified company, which means that their factories and offices must be inspected and audited several times per year to ensure they they are adhering to the highest standards of product quality and customer service.
Hardness ratings are not subjective. They are quantitative measurements of the steel's hardness. These ratings are based on empirical reproducible tests, not anecdotal stories from somebody whose knives chipped after "only 3 root wads" (quoted from a complaint I got a few weeks ago - this guy thought they broke because they were made in Vietnam, not because he was chipping rocks).
I think a lot of people believe that Zenith knives are junk because they're made in Vietnam, whereas US manufacturers must be making better products because they're American. This is complete nonsense. The auto industry is a perfect example of American companies who make an inferior product compared to many of their foreign competitors. This is probably why the big 3 American auto manufacturers are all on the verge of bankruptcy while Toyata and Honda are making billions.
To put this on a more personal level, if you do good tree work it isn't because you are American. If you do crappy tree work, it isn't because you're Canadian (except for you Squish, sorry
). The standards of a particular manufacturer are not determined by their government (thank god or we'd be screwed). They are determined by individuals who make good or bad decisions.
End of rant.
Hardness ratings are not subjective. They are quantitative measurements of the steel's hardness. These ratings are based on empirical reproducible tests, not anecdotal stories from somebody whose knives chipped after "only 3 root wads" (quoted from a complaint I got a few weeks ago - this guy thought they broke because they were made in Vietnam, not because he was chipping rocks).
I think a lot of people believe that Zenith knives are junk because they're made in Vietnam, whereas US manufacturers must be making better products because they're American. This is complete nonsense. The auto industry is a perfect example of American companies who make an inferior product compared to many of their foreign competitors. This is probably why the big 3 American auto manufacturers are all on the verge of bankruptcy while Toyata and Honda are making billions.
To put this on a more personal level, if you do good tree work it isn't because you are American. If you do crappy tree work, it isn't because you're Canadian (except for you Squish, sorry
). The standards of a particular manufacturer are not determined by their government (thank god or we'd be screwed). They are determined by individuals who make good or bad decisions.End of rant.
Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
Dang, I have never seen that either. Didn't know that was possible for a knife to do that. You definately have a problem there.
Makes me glad I get our knives from the Morbark dealer. Might cost more but at least I have piece of mind and if something goes wrong I have a legit bitch.
Makes me glad I get our knives from the Morbark dealer. Might cost more but at least I have piece of mind and if something goes wrong I have a legit bitch.
M
Mr. Sir
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #36
Ax-Man, Are you saying I don't have a "legit bitch" because I bought the knives from Sherrill?
Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
Mr Sir, No not at all. You have a definate ligit bitch with Sherrill.
What I am trying to say is that if I tore up a machine using dealer supplied knives. Then the dealer could not back out on the damage done by saying I used a knive from another supplier. That is all.
Just covering all the bases. Every time I go up to my Morbark dealer they always have a chipper in the shop for some kind of major reconstructive surgery from stuff like a driveshaft going through them. ( This is no joke either, it happened, idiot employee didn't want to work that day, sabatoged the machine) My worst nightmare is that could be our chipper someday. If a knive was to bend or break and come loose inside the drum and the problem was a knive they sold me at least I would have a leg to stand on.
What I am trying to say is that if I tore up a machine using dealer supplied knives. Then the dealer could not back out on the damage done by saying I used a knive from another supplier. That is all.
Just covering all the bases. Every time I go up to my Morbark dealer they always have a chipper in the shop for some kind of major reconstructive surgery from stuff like a driveshaft going through them. ( This is no joke either, it happened, idiot employee didn't want to work that day, sabatoged the machine) My worst nightmare is that could be our chipper someday. If a knive was to bend or break and come loose inside the drum and the problem was a knive they sold me at least I would have a leg to stand on.
M
Mr. Sir
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #38
Gotcha, that makes sense. The only damage so far is some excessive wear on the anvil where the knife touched. And yes, it could have been a whole lot worse if the knife came apart.
J
Jamin Mayer
Guest
Dang! It is scary to think of the potentials which would occur if the knife were to shatter.
N
NeTree
Guest
Bounce, I agree with most of your post.
To expand a bit, the Rockwell C test presses a diamond on the surface of the steel with a very precise amount of force. Measuring how far the diamond "dented" the steel gives your the hardness. The harder the material, the smaller the "dent". If anyone cares to see the machine that does that, I'll snap a pic of it at work tomorrow.
It looks to me like the blades didn't get heat treated to bring the knife body back up to the desired hardness. It could also not be the correct grade of steel, which a chemical analysis would reveal. (We use a few methods, but the neatest uses an x-ray gun.)
As for the America vs Vietnam debate... it depends on whether both plants are ISO or not, although passing ISO certification doesn't necessarily mean you don't make a crappy product. ISO is only a quality system, not a quality standard. If your standards are sloppy, the ISO quality system will only mean you can consistently produce the same sloppy standard. As of late, I'm seeing better quality steel from the mid-east and Asia than our own domestic suppliers.
To expand a bit, the Rockwell C test presses a diamond on the surface of the steel with a very precise amount of force. Measuring how far the diamond "dented" the steel gives your the hardness. The harder the material, the smaller the "dent". If anyone cares to see the machine that does that, I'll snap a pic of it at work tomorrow.
It looks to me like the blades didn't get heat treated to bring the knife body back up to the desired hardness. It could also not be the correct grade of steel, which a chemical analysis would reveal. (We use a few methods, but the neatest uses an x-ray gun.)
As for the America vs Vietnam debate... it depends on whether both plants are ISO or not, although passing ISO certification doesn't necessarily mean you don't make a crappy product. ISO is only a quality system, not a quality standard. If your standards are sloppy, the ISO quality system will only mean you can consistently produce the same sloppy standard. As of late, I'm seeing better quality steel from the mid-east and Asia than our own domestic suppliers.
K
Kman
Guest
That IS weird!! Never seen a hardened knife bend!! I've been running the Zenith knives in my Bandit 250 for a few years now with no problems. They actually seem to be lasting longer than the Bandit supplied knives. I must admit that I did not know they were manufactured in Vietnam when I first bought some. I guy I grew up with got out of the tree business and I bought all his chipper knives(new and used) and it was then that I saw the "Made in Vietnam" stamp. Like I said I have no complaints with them but I did go to the site above and request info on the American made ones.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
If you do crappy tree work, it isn't because you're Canadian (except for you Squish, sorry
Umm you know I have your bosses e-mail address right?
sotc
Dormant hero!!
send one to ne tree for independat analisys!
rbtree
Climbing Up
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,924
I hope this doesn't derail this thread, but I need to clear something up. Zenith knives are made to exact same standards that all chipper knives are. They are made from "chipper steel", which by definition has a hardness rating of A8. This type of steel has a high carbon and chrome content, and has been heat treated and annealed 3 times. At the cutting edge, Zenith knives have a Rockwell hardness rating of 56-58. In the center near the bolt holes, the Rockwell hardness rating needs to be in the mid 40's to prevent shattering. Zenith is an ISO 9001 certified company, which means that their factories and offices must be inspected and audited several times per year to ensure they they are adhering to the highest standards of product quality and customer service.
Hardness ratings are not subjective. They are quantitative measurements of the steel's hardness. These ratings are based on empirical reproducible tests, not anecdotal stories from somebody whose knives chipped after "only 3 root wads" (quoted from a complaint I got a few weeks ago - this guy thought they broke because they were made in Vietnam, not because he was chipping rocks).
I think a lot of people believe that Zenith knives are junk because they're made in Vietnam, whereas US manufacturers must be making better products because they're American. This is complete nonsense. The auto industry is a perfect example of American companies who make an inferior product compared to many of their foreign competitors. This is probably why the big 3 American auto manufacturers are all on the verge of bankruptcy while Toyata and Honda are making billions.
To put this on a more personal level, if you do good tree work it isn't because you are American. If you do crappy tree work, it isn't because you're Canadian (except for you Squish, sorry
End of rant.
Interesting. I have been using Zenith knives for several years, and find them to work just fine. Love the price. Hard to imagine that the other knives talked about are good enough to be worth double.....
Thanks for the info, Sean.
B
Bounce
Guest
Really? Then write him a letter and tell him I'm doing such a good job that I deserve a raise! Don't mention that you're Canadian though or he'll just delete it without reading it.
B
Bounce
Guest
My point exactly.
M
Mr. Sir
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #47
Well, the shit hit the fan today. Got the call on my cell phone about 10 am today. "Umm, boss, bad news; looks like a chipper blade came apart and tore up the chipper." That was an understatement. So I spent a couple hours this afternoon tearing it down to assess the damage and here's what I'm looking at so far:
It appears the left knife struck the anvil hard, which immediately stopped the drum rotation, causing the drum shaft to shear off on the right side. The left bearing cracked, the drum, fan, and shaft are history. The bottom of the drum housing where the anvil attaches is bent downward and the access cover on top of the drum is bent upward. So basically, everything in and around the drum needs to be replaced. I'm waiting for an estimate on the parts from Morbark.
It's been a bad day.
The good news is, no one got hurt.
It appears the left knife struck the anvil hard, which immediately stopped the drum rotation, causing the drum shaft to shear off on the right side. The left bearing cracked, the drum, fan, and shaft are history. The bottom of the drum housing where the anvil attaches is bent downward and the access cover on top of the drum is bent upward. So basically, everything in and around the drum needs to be replaced. I'm waiting for an estimate on the parts from Morbark.
It's been a bad day.
The good news is, no one got hurt.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Well damn!
N
NeTree
Guest
If you can prove the knife was defective, you could hold the manufacturer liable., nevermind any disclaimer they try to pass off. Just 'cuz they SAY it ain't they're problem, don't MAKE it so.
SkwerI
Treehouser
I think I'd be on the phone to the knife manufacturer (or seller) looking for some reimbursement for the damage caused by defective knives.
