Can you explain that a little more, this suburbanite isn't sure what you mean. Thanks.
Awesome!
Gotta say I love this thread, and following your progress!
alternatives in land use
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Can you explain that a little more, this suburbanite isn't sure what you mean. Thanks.
Awesome!
Gotta say I love this thread, and following your progress!
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Near as I can work out Cory, the major difference between Gabe Brown and Bob Quinn is that Bob uses tillage to fallow his land every other year and Gabe does not fallow.
Fallow is another word for resting the land.
The use of heavy tillage reduces weed pressure, but does virtually nothing for soil health. Bob's land is bare and hot. Mechanical disturbance is bad for soil biology, so is bare dirt, like what might be seen with chem fallow. The ambient air temperature might be 85, but the soil temp can be as high as 140. Soil microbes start to die at 100.
Bob relies on a plow down of peas or yellow clover. Those plants build some organic matter and also fix nitrogen. Once those plants are plowed down the land must be tilled to keep weeds at bay.
Honestly, plowing down crops like peas and clover is just a little bit better than adding chemical fertilizer. At least with no till your land does not blow or wash away.
Gabe uses plants and roots to create a living ecosystem under the soil surface. This ecosystem provides the nutrition the next years crop needs. The land is not bare and hot.
With a thriving ecosystem above and below the surface of the soil the need for fungicides is greatly reduced, and the reliance on varieties that are resistant to disease is lessened.
The habitat created by growing plants rather than killing them provides all the natural tools a crop needs to thrive.
I hope I answered your question, ask again if I was not clear.
I did everything from dressing to packaging the meat Cory. The boss did the killing, with a captive bolt gun.
Mostly I was a dresser. Skin, gut and quarter, but I did do some cutting.
Fallow is another word for resting the land.
The use of heavy tillage reduces weed pressure, but does virtually nothing for soil health. Bob's land is bare and hot. Mechanical disturbance is bad for soil biology, so is bare dirt, like what might be seen with chem fallow. The ambient air temperature might be 85, but the soil temp can be as high as 140. Soil microbes start to die at 100.
Bob relies on a plow down of peas or yellow clover. Those plants build some organic matter and also fix nitrogen. Once those plants are plowed down the land must be tilled to keep weeds at bay.
Honestly, plowing down crops like peas and clover is just a little bit better than adding chemical fertilizer. At least with no till your land does not blow or wash away.
Gabe uses plants and roots to create a living ecosystem under the soil surface. This ecosystem provides the nutrition the next years crop needs. The land is not bare and hot.
With a thriving ecosystem above and below the surface of the soil the need for fungicides is greatly reduced, and the reliance on varieties that are resistant to disease is lessened.
The habitat created by growing plants rather than killing them provides all the natural tools a crop needs to thrive.
I hope I answered your question, ask again if I was not clear.
I did everything from dressing to packaging the meat Cory. The boss did the killing, with a captive bolt gun.
Mostly I was a dresser. Skin, gut and quarter, but I did do some cutting.
How does butchering buff compare to cattle, if at all? Are buff any harder to kill than a cow?
Skin, gut and quarter, I'm sorry to report I've never even once done that. But doing it 8 hours/day sounds like a workout and a half, feel like telling a bit what it is like? How come only the boss did the killing? What about the knives, what are they like? Lotta sharpening going on during the process? What are the animals doing before The End, do they know what is up?
Thanks!
Skin, gut and quarter, I'm sorry to report I've never even once done that. But doing it 8 hours/day sounds like a workout and a half, feel like telling a bit what it is like? How come only the boss did the killing? What about the knives, what are they like? Lotta sharpening going on during the process? What are the animals doing before The End, do they know what is up?
Thanks!
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
The boss did not even kill the buffalo. They were transported to us in a horse trailer, and never let out until they were headed to the kill chute. They were not let out because they can break out of any structure that is built for cattle.
I dont remember using the bolt gun on a buffalo, I remember the owner using a .44 magnum handgun. Maybe they were too tough to use the bolt gun.
If you miss with a bolt gun, a cow will still be stunned and you have a chance to do it again. A buffalo better be dead right there or he can blow through any chute and get away. There are still bullet holes in the wall where the owner missed several times while trying to kill a bull that got out of the kill chute. I was not there that day.
The bolt gun takes training and should not be used by someone without a very good knowledge of how and where to use it.
Yes, it was hard work, and I did not like it very much. I did not like the killing aspect of it, but it needed done.
It is physical, but there are cranes and hoists to lessen the work load. The animals were dressed and cleaned, then hung to age. After they were aged they animals were quartered and cut.
I was never very good with a knife, and to watch a skilled person bone and cut is amazing. Very little wasted motion. My buddy could get a head off in three cuts, would take me three dozen!
The meat is broken down in to quarters and what not, then broken down further in to more managable cuts. Not willy nilly, but with a purpose, always thinking of the final product. Trying to maximize the yield.
Roasts are cut from bone, steaks are cut out and then run through the band saw to the right thickness. Trim is saved and used for burger, the fat is saved and used to add to the burger.
I suck at sharpening knives, so my buddy did it for me. The knives were cheap, bought in bulk. Stainless with white plastic handles. They were kept in a scabbard on your hip, along with a steel.
A three block, oil bath stone was used to sharpen.
I did not feel bad about being kind of crappy at the finer points, I was part time and not being paid very well. There is not much full time work in a small slaughter house. Call when needed sort of thing.
Sometimes I came in at night to help my buddy for no pay at all, thats why he sharpened my knives for me!
Lots on night work during hunting season. Folks would drop off game animals after closing, just pile them up on the dock. They were gutted, but needed skinned and washed before being hung.
I was useful for that because you have to heft the animals into the shop. Weak mind strong back sort of thing.
We wasted no time skinning them however. We would drag them to the kill floor, take the hooves and head off, tie the skin of the rear legs to the stool and hook a gambrel to the the space where the tendon meets the knee. Then an electric hoist would lift the animal while you stood on the stool for weight. It would peel right off. Then we washed the carcass, taped the hunting tag to the meat, and trolley them to the cooler.
Then we did it again, and again, often till the early morning. I never got paid for that, but my buddy needed help.
More care was taken in skinning a buffalo, the hides were worth more than cow hides, other than that it was very similar.
I dont remember using the bolt gun on a buffalo, I remember the owner using a .44 magnum handgun. Maybe they were too tough to use the bolt gun.
If you miss with a bolt gun, a cow will still be stunned and you have a chance to do it again. A buffalo better be dead right there or he can blow through any chute and get away. There are still bullet holes in the wall where the owner missed several times while trying to kill a bull that got out of the kill chute. I was not there that day.
The bolt gun takes training and should not be used by someone without a very good knowledge of how and where to use it.
Yes, it was hard work, and I did not like it very much. I did not like the killing aspect of it, but it needed done.
It is physical, but there are cranes and hoists to lessen the work load. The animals were dressed and cleaned, then hung to age. After they were aged they animals were quartered and cut.
I was never very good with a knife, and to watch a skilled person bone and cut is amazing. Very little wasted motion. My buddy could get a head off in three cuts, would take me three dozen!
The meat is broken down in to quarters and what not, then broken down further in to more managable cuts. Not willy nilly, but with a purpose, always thinking of the final product. Trying to maximize the yield.
Roasts are cut from bone, steaks are cut out and then run through the band saw to the right thickness. Trim is saved and used for burger, the fat is saved and used to add to the burger.
I suck at sharpening knives, so my buddy did it for me. The knives were cheap, bought in bulk. Stainless with white plastic handles. They were kept in a scabbard on your hip, along with a steel.
A three block, oil bath stone was used to sharpen.
I did not feel bad about being kind of crappy at the finer points, I was part time and not being paid very well. There is not much full time work in a small slaughter house. Call when needed sort of thing.
Sometimes I came in at night to help my buddy for no pay at all, thats why he sharpened my knives for me!
Lots on night work during hunting season. Folks would drop off game animals after closing, just pile them up on the dock. They were gutted, but needed skinned and washed before being hung.
I was useful for that because you have to heft the animals into the shop. Weak mind strong back sort of thing.
We wasted no time skinning them however. We would drag them to the kill floor, take the hooves and head off, tie the skin of the rear legs to the stool and hook a gambrel to the the space where the tendon meets the knee. Then an electric hoist would lift the animal while you stood on the stool for weight. It would peel right off. Then we washed the carcass, taped the hunting tag to the meat, and trolley them to the cooler.
Then we did it again, and again, often till the early morning. I never got paid for that, but my buddy needed help.
More care was taken in skinning a buffalo, the hides were worth more than cow hides, other than that it was very similar.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Not a job I'd enjoy...
Great post!
Great post!
pantheraba
More biners!!!
Yes, Jim...good reading there...fine detail. Sounds like you really liked your friend to give him that kind of help.
And, Cory....great questions...you got the Jimster rolling!
And, Cory....great questions...you got the Jimster rolling!
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
I suspect I should give a little update for those listening at home.......
We ended up getting quite a few acres of cover crops planted, as I have mentioned.
Some of them look quite nice, with over two tons of forage per acre in some places. Lots of bugs and flowers. Every sunflower has two or three lady bugs on them, and the wild and tame bees are buzzing about. There are no paper wasps around my house right now. Usually they are piled three deep on the screen doors, looking for a place to live this winter.
I am wondering if they are out in the fields right now instead of swarming my house. Usually there are no flowers anywhere this time of year, but there are lots of flowers in my cover crops. The sunflowers are not blooming yet, but the tame Buckwheat is flowering and the phaceliia is flowering too. Wasps are an important pollinator and hunter, but they dont eat the bugs they catch, they eat nectar.
Some of the cover crops look quite poor, and I KNOW there is a nutrient deficiency. The land is not equipped to handle growth every year, it needs to be fallowed to grow a crop.
The poor crops are on the re-crop ground. I think that the reason they are poor is because the microbial life is probably about zero. Instead of microbes doing the job of breaking down organic matter into plant food, it takes weather, temperature and time. Once we get the life back into the soil, the breakdown process will be much faster and we will be able to grow stuff every year, even twice a year.
This is not theory, I am SEEING this on my farm. This is a fact Jack!
Wheat is shitty, got diseased. The safflower is looking ok, but the lentils are questionable. This translates into another loss year.
As an example, we have 200 acres next to the house here in cover crops, out of 500 acres of crop land. Some is in wheat and some is in safflower.
That 200 acres of wheat looks like shit, disease and such. It might yield about 15 bushels. Each of those bushels is worth about 3 bucks. So our gross is 45 bucks an acre.
To plant that wheat it takes 30 bucks in fertilizer, 50 bucks in spray, 10 bucks in insurance, 7 bucks for seed, and 7 bucks to seed it. To harvest is about 12, to haul to town is 4 bucks. About 120 bucks an acre in costs. Usually averages 100-130 dollars.
Looking at loosing at least 60 dollars an acre.
To combat that, we are looking at buying some sheep. Yes, sheep. Already have a set of velcro chaps ordered.
To run sheep on this ground would cost about 30 bucks an acre, thats for spray and planting a cover crop. 320 ewes, which is a load, cost about 80,000. A 150 percent lamb crop, lambed in June, would be worth 84,000.
It would take some infrastructure work, and you would need to buy bucks and winter the sheep, but the profit potential after the first year is great.
We would rotate the sheep and cover crops, growing a cash crop on the off years.
We ended up getting quite a few acres of cover crops planted, as I have mentioned.
Some of them look quite nice, with over two tons of forage per acre in some places. Lots of bugs and flowers. Every sunflower has two or three lady bugs on them, and the wild and tame bees are buzzing about. There are no paper wasps around my house right now. Usually they are piled three deep on the screen doors, looking for a place to live this winter.
I am wondering if they are out in the fields right now instead of swarming my house. Usually there are no flowers anywhere this time of year, but there are lots of flowers in my cover crops. The sunflowers are not blooming yet, but the tame Buckwheat is flowering and the phaceliia is flowering too. Wasps are an important pollinator and hunter, but they dont eat the bugs they catch, they eat nectar.
Some of the cover crops look quite poor, and I KNOW there is a nutrient deficiency. The land is not equipped to handle growth every year, it needs to be fallowed to grow a crop.
The poor crops are on the re-crop ground. I think that the reason they are poor is because the microbial life is probably about zero. Instead of microbes doing the job of breaking down organic matter into plant food, it takes weather, temperature and time. Once we get the life back into the soil, the breakdown process will be much faster and we will be able to grow stuff every year, even twice a year.
This is not theory, I am SEEING this on my farm. This is a fact Jack!
Wheat is shitty, got diseased. The safflower is looking ok, but the lentils are questionable. This translates into another loss year.
As an example, we have 200 acres next to the house here in cover crops, out of 500 acres of crop land. Some is in wheat and some is in safflower.
That 200 acres of wheat looks like shit, disease and such. It might yield about 15 bushels. Each of those bushels is worth about 3 bucks. So our gross is 45 bucks an acre.
To plant that wheat it takes 30 bucks in fertilizer, 50 bucks in spray, 10 bucks in insurance, 7 bucks for seed, and 7 bucks to seed it. To harvest is about 12, to haul to town is 4 bucks. About 120 bucks an acre in costs. Usually averages 100-130 dollars.
Looking at loosing at least 60 dollars an acre.
To combat that, we are looking at buying some sheep. Yes, sheep. Already have a set of velcro chaps ordered.
To run sheep on this ground would cost about 30 bucks an acre, thats for spray and planting a cover crop. 320 ewes, which is a load, cost about 80,000. A 150 percent lamb crop, lambed in June, would be worth 84,000.
It would take some infrastructure work, and you would need to buy bucks and winter the sheep, but the profit potential after the first year is great.
We would rotate the sheep and cover crops, growing a cash crop on the off years.
Awesome report. Mebbe a lotta folks don't care but reading about your resurrecting the land in a win/win approach I think is screamingly awesome!
Sheep, eh? Are you saying they dovetail nicely with the cover crops you're growing? Dumb question, but whaddya expect! Doh!
Sheep, eh? Are you saying they dovetail nicely with the cover crops you're growing? Dumb question, but whaddya expect! Doh!
treebilly
Student of the Jedi. OH-7106A
Jim I'm truly hoping that this turns out to be a rewarding venture for you. It's hard to break away from the norm. Of course the norm ain't doing so well either. Most farmers around here have to carry full time jobs plus run their farms. A good friend of mine does this. He has told me that things need to change or his farm won't last. He's starting to look at alternatives as well.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Thanks Rich and Cory. Yeah, kinda grim times ahead for most. We all got suckered into raising pulse crops this year, and the market has tanked. Turns out some Indian business man bought some favor from the Indian govt and bought all the production from several states. He then stock piled those stocks making an artificial shortage. Prices skyrocketed, so he sold, flooding the market. Now he can buy back a super low prices.
I was confused at first, they call lentils Dal.
Anyway Cory, the sheep idea is not necessarily because sheep would be ideal for the cover crop rotation, but they would work. Right now we are thinking of ways to cash in on these covers, and one way is to diversify. Agrigusiness and the govt pull us in the direction of monoculture and selling calves.
To combat this, and manage some risk, we are planning to diversify, spread the eggs among many baskets.
But yes, the cover crops do lend themselves to livestock. It will be nice to have them close to home, in small pastures.
Having the covers close to home will also help with lambing. We will lamb on green grass, instead of in February. That way the ewes wont need shorne until it warms up, and they will need less feed.
I was confused at first, they call lentils Dal.
Anyway Cory, the sheep idea is not necessarily because sheep would be ideal for the cover crop rotation, but they would work. Right now we are thinking of ways to cash in on these covers, and one way is to diversify. Agrigusiness and the govt pull us in the direction of monoculture and selling calves.
To combat this, and manage some risk, we are planning to diversify, spread the eggs among many baskets.
But yes, the cover crops do lend themselves to livestock. It will be nice to have them close to home, in small pastures.
Having the covers close to home will also help with lambing. We will lamb on green grass, instead of in February. That way the ewes wont need shorne until it warms up, and they will need less feed.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #441
You have vision, Jim. There are so many things that we can't change. It is a pointless waste of time to try. It takes a special person to recognize what can be changed and then has the backbone to do it.
A new climate change book in which Jim could have easily been featured.
http://www.outsideonline.com/2109731/climate-change-isnt-red-or-blue-you-think
http://www.outsideonline.com/2109731/climate-change-isnt-red-or-blue-you-think
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Are you going to read it Cory?
Probably not, I feel like I already have a fairly good basic understanding of that rancher's POV from following your experiences here. And the other featured people, well, I feel like it is probably an interesting and worthwhile book and I hope folks who have an interest but little understanding will read it to raise awareness but I suspect I couldnt get through the book unless it was very well written. And in that case it will probably get a lot of rave reviews and I'll circle back later and read it.
I liked how the article noted the benefits of no-till farming and also the flip side of requiring more herbicides thus pointing out the lack of answers that are absolute.
Did you read the linked article, Jim, curious to see what you thought.
I liked how the article noted the benefits of no-till farming and also the flip side of requiring more herbicides thus pointing out the lack of answers that are absolute.
Did you read the linked article, Jim, curious to see what you thought.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Yes, I did read it. Got a little silly at the end, with the politics shit, but it was good.
I think he is on the right track.
Ha! I am gonna come off like a old timey expert, but it seems like he has a ways to go yet. I think he would benefit from some diversity in his cover. The more diversity he implements the less dependence he will have on herbicides and fungicides.
I agree 100% with him about the tillage/organic question though.
My wife and I were talking on the trip down to Baker to that cover crop seminar. She is the brakes so to speak. Always a bit leery of change.
I started rattling off ideas and plans about sheep, fall seeded covers, year round grazing, late calving and what not.
Her response usually starts like "well, I am just worried that.........."
I told her "you aint got one shittin problem that I cant solve with a cover crop!"
She had to agree
I think he is on the right track.
Ha! I am gonna come off like a old timey expert, but it seems like he has a ways to go yet. I think he would benefit from some diversity in his cover. The more diversity he implements the less dependence he will have on herbicides and fungicides.
I agree 100% with him about the tillage/organic question though.
My wife and I were talking on the trip down to Baker to that cover crop seminar. She is the brakes so to speak. Always a bit leery of change.
I started rattling off ideas and plans about sheep, fall seeded covers, year round grazing, late calving and what not.
Her response usually starts like "well, I am just worried that.........."
I told her "you aint got one shittin problem that I cant solve with a cover crop!"
She had to agree
pantheraba
More biners!!!
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Sad thing is, thats how I really talk!
Thanks for putting that here Cory.
Thanks for putting that here Cory.
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