Advice on Saving a Nice One

[brendonv]

This tree needs to be saved. No targets, no kids. Gorgeous White Oak.

Judging by the color of the wood, it's been like this for a good while. Hasn't gotten any bigger since I looked at it a few weeks ago (it's now a rush job as she finally made up her mind). I was pondering on two 3/8" EHS cables installed, after cranking it close together with the GRCS. I also suggested some weight reduction in fall, and installing a rod at the union.

Any suggestions or input?

 

[SkwerI]

Kill it (and take the money).

Big tree, big money. Big rush, bigger money.

 

[PCTREE]

Ugly tree. Get it in writing that you advised them to take it down, cover your ass my man.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

Seems like multiple rods and ehs, and written disclaimer.

Are you thinking rigguys, wedge grips, performs, or...?

 

[bonner1040]

I would remove it, but for the sake of argument, EHS and amons for the cable and multiple rods at the bottom.

edit: and some serious disclaimer, signed/witnessed recommendation for removal...

 

[SkwerI]

CODIT walls have been breached. Looks like the split goes all the way to the ground so the decay would be extending into the roots. A tree like that could be cabled and would stand until the roots failed. You would find out about the roots once the tree was on the ground and the fungus and rot would be visible on the broken roots now above ground.

 

[sotc]

I agree, on your bid make note that you recommended removal. Then do all your work to industry standards. Do you have the ANSI standards for supplemental support? Read that before your bid

 

[MasterBlaster]

Trim it and cable it, collect the check. It's her tree and her money.

 

[stig]

Kill it.
If you decide to do anything else, Make triple sure your ass is covered when it eventually breaks down.

 

[FJR]

If there is no risk to people or structure, then up to three bracing rods + 3/8" cables + weight reduction in the dormant season.

 

[brendonv]

There is no risk, otherwise I'd never get involved.

Any have a cabling disclaimer, or advice on on I can write on the estimate and have her sign?

 

[gf beranek]

It's held this long. Reasonably you could promise the customer 10 more years of it standing if you cabled, or through bolted it. I'd go with the cable.

As it is in the meantime it's a more potential risk. And everything that goes along with that.

Yeah, as Brian said..

 

[SkwerI]

Keep in mind that even if you cable it, there's more than 50% chance that she will end up having another tree service cut it down within 12 months. In 25 years I've saved many trees only to drive by 6 months later and see an empty space where my saved tree used to be. They would never call me back to remove it since I argued so vehemently for saving it.

 

[bonner1040]

"DISCLAIMER:

Cabling and bracing of trees is intended to reduce hazard potential only. It does not permanently remedy structural weaknesses, is not a guarantee against failure, and requires periodic inspection."

"The installation of cables in a tree represents an ongoing responsibility. All hardware in trees should be inspected annually to ensure proper placement and manage adjustments. All cabling systems should be updated or replaced after 7-10 years."

"Cabling and Bracing

Cabling and bracing does not repair a hazard tree, but when done correctly by a trained arborist, it can extend the time a tree or its parts are safe. Done incorrectly, it creates a more serious hazard. We do not recommend cabling or bracing as treatment for a hazard tree unless the tree has significant historic or landscape value."

I just copied and pasted that from the top 7 or so sites on http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=tree+cabling+disclaimer&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


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I imagine if you combine that kind of verbage you might come up with something good like:

DISCLAIMER:

Cabling and bracing of trees is intended to reduce present danger and assist the tree as it grows. It does not permanently repair structural weakness or defect. There are no guarantee against failure, or any future events whether positive or negative.

Installation of cables or bracing in a tree constitutes an ongoing responsibility of the owner to maintain and inspect bracing systems or have them maintained and inspected by a qualified professional.

All hardware in trees should be inspected annually to ensure proper placement and manage adjustments. All cabling systems should be updated or replaced after 7-10 years. If you do not inspect and adjust your cable and bracing systems it is possible they could do more harm than good.

Some trees may be damaged beyond the point where cabling and bracing is effective. We do not recommend cabling or bracing as treatment for a hazard tree unless the tree has significant historic or landscape value.

No warranties, implied or expressed are offered as to structural integrity or any cabling or bracing systems. Any work performed is done so in good faith in the interest of preserving the tree, property and surrounding environment.

 

[FJR]

A lot of times answers to situations are determined by the personality of the client and how well you read them. If they are the ones pushing for saving the tree then the answer has already presented itself, just don't ever make concrete promises to the client. If they are sitting on the fence between saving and removal then present each option and reccomend what you would do if it was your tree. Ulimately it is their decision.

 

[pigwot]

I must be missing something... I see there is a hammock strung to that tree in the overall picture and yet there is no risk?
I see two houses in the picture; do the neighbors ever have children or grandchildren over who might play near the tree?

CYA statement are all fine and dandy, but any seriously compromised tree has to have a very conservative evaluation of risk versus its landscape/historical value before leaving it.

Now that being said, the fellow who spoke at TCI a few years ago, Erik Brudi from Germany (I think that was his name) had compelling science (okay, maybe not years of hands-on experience) that showed how proper bracing could greatly reduce the risk of failure in a tree that would otherwise be considered unsafe. Even then, the point was, there is still risk, and the question remains, "Is it acceptable?".

I have cabled and braced a ton of trees in this area. I have had to take some of those trees down after five to twenty years as they started to decline further.

I saw one of a very few failures in 33 years after that nasty storm at the end of June.
It was a mature Linden that rotted out, as Brian was suggesting could happen with this white oak. I had wanted to take it down, and in the end agreed to cable and rod-brace it. That was 25 years ago. So they got to enjoy the tree and when it did fall apart no one in their right mind was outside on account of the ferocity of the storm, so luckily no one was injured.

Be careful out there; we are the ones with the knowledge-base and that implies a fiduciary responsibility to assure the best safety of our clients.

 

[gf beranek]

I've said this before. Trees of past that I advised to the customer were safe to leave were, a week or two later, felled by another tree service.

The customer was afraid of the tree and only wanted to hear an opinion that the tree represented a hazard. And they go with that.

It clears their conscience of having to make the final decision to tell someone to fall the tree just because they are afraid of it.

I have always given my honest opinion to the customer regardless of their fears.

This is one side of private tree work that is seldom talked about.

I have long remained honest to the customer and to my convictions. And by it I have lost many a removal job over the years.

A tree that poses no threat should not be cut just because the customer is afraid of it. My feelings.

 

[Tucker943]

I've talked many people into pruning. I do the work. Within 6 months the trees are topped. It proves that people make up their mind and often stick to their guns.

 

[gf beranek]

There you go!!

Says a lot for educating the customer. But likely to never come.

 

[SkwerI]

I've simply quit responding to people when the first words out of their mouth mention topping. I nod and smile and say I'm pretty busy, or I don't work much on that side of town, or even agreeing to come look sometime. I haven't tried talking somebody out of topping a tree in at least a couple years.

 

[Husabud]

I was asked to top six decent White Oaks last spring for a better view of the ocean, one was the neighbors. I told him I'll just kill them all now and save me coming back. He said he didn't think his neighbor would like that, so I asked what he thought topping would really do for the trees. I didn't get the job someone else did and half of those trees are darn near dead already. I got a call from the neighbor last week to assess the damage. People will do what they want and hire who will do it for them.

 

[MasterBlaster]

For me, topping is simply a two stage takedown, spread out over time.

 

[sotc]

I must be missing something... I see there is a hammock strung to that tree in the overall picture and yet there is no risk?
I see two houses in the picture; do the neighbors ever have children or grandchildren over who might play near the tree?

CYA statement are all fine and dandy, but any seriously compromised tree has to have a very conservative evaluation of risk versus its landscape/historical value before leaving it.

Now that being said, the fellow who spoke at TCI a few years ago, Erik Brudi from Germany (I think that was his name) had compelling science (okay, maybe not years of hands-on experience) that showed how proper bracing could greatly reduce the risk of failure in a tree that would otherwise be considered unsafe. Even then, the point was, there is still risk, and the question remains, "Is it acceptable?".

I have cabled and braced a ton of trees in this area. I have had to take some of those trees down after five to twenty years as they started to decline further.

I saw one of a very few failures in 33 years after that nasty storm at the end of June.
It was a mature Linden that rotted out, as Brian was suggesting could happen with this white oak. I had wanted to take it down, and in the end agreed to cable and rod-brace it. That was 25 years ago. So they got to enjoy the tree and when it did fall apart no one in their right mind was outside on account of the ferocity of the storm, so luckily no one was injured.

Be careful out there; we are the ones with the knowledge-base and that implies a fiduciary responsibility to assure the best safety of our clients.

I disagree, IMO our job is to inform the client of the condition and risk and any scenarios that could help or hinder the tree and the risk represented. In other words, educate the client the best you can and let them make the decision, they are the ones that have to live with the risk so they make the final call.

A tree that poses no threat should not be cut just because the customer is afraid of it. My feelings.

This to I disagree with. Again, I educate the client. I removed a very nice cedar a few years back after telling the client 3 years in a row that it was a healthy, stable tree. If a tree is keeping your clients awake at night, then by all means, it is their tree to do with as they please.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Actually, I don't think it's "their" tree, not at all. They just happen to own the property and they're lucky to have that tree grow there.

I'd LOVE to get the tree's opinion of the owner.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I educate the HO and do my job. Always try to find middle ground and do what is best for both tree and HO. Balance. If the HO decides to screw it up later, it is not on me. I did my job.
DId the HO want to save the tree.?? or is it me? If the HO wants to hold onto the tree for some years, try to mitigate the risk. If not.. Oh well... Cut it down. Tree is doomed eventually in that condition. But if you can provide enough information and damage mitigation through pruning, cabling and a rod(s) with proper safety warning, go for it if you have no targets. I always close my statement to them during a consult, if they want to save a tree that damaged, please don't have picnics under it, hammock or swing. It will fail eventually. All we can do is minimize the damage that will occur probably.
I am not a God, I cannot make what is mortal, immortal.