Added Wedge Push or Rope Pull input force direction to forward fall with sideLean

[theTreeSpyder]

In any force system, 'directionality' is of MAJOR importance to me.
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i think in center balanced tree to face, any would wedge or pull simply forward squarely to face.
But with sideLean, how do you plot on the chessboard the direction of the TEMPORARY (to rest of tree arc on hinge into face) added force of push or pull?
This would apply to skidsteer push too i think, just as raw force, but best with some pepper spice of some lift like wedge
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But NOT to any 'arm wrestling' scenario, where into wide face, rope pull or motor push serves tree just right, thru whole arc rotation on hinge;
where added push/pull wrestles (not propels and releases) the beast to the ground fully loaded of added help against tree the whole way(hard to conjure but sometimes doable)

 

[flushcut]

I consider a wedge a push and I'll use a rope to counter the lean. And some times with side lean I'll tie off a tree opposite the lean, get the tree cut up standing on wedges and pull it over to the lay. It is pretty rare that I can just wedge a tree over. And even rarer that I can just flop a tree whole.

 

[murphy4trees]

I've used offset pull lines for decades with great success. I first heard the term "compensation pull" from August when we were talking about it. To make much of a difference on anything big with a lot of side lean you need high lines and lots of pulling force ( heavy machines)

 

[Tree09]

I have gone so far as to roughly calculate the side/back lean in torque, and then the pulling force, so i have a better idea before i put a saw to it.

 

[murphy4trees]

I have gone so far as to roughly calculate the side/back lean in torque, and then the pulling force, so i have a better idea before i put a saw to it.

That's a lot of math... no matter how much trig you remember. I just do it by guestimation, with a strong reliance on fat hinges and multiple lines if needed.

 

[Frankie]

@murphy4trees ... Do you ever use wedges as insurance Or strictly pull lines only ?

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Slicing down the math, see portion of tree weight to target
>>across thin axis of hinge as loaded axis, so is the single dimension of cosine
>>then some to side of unique cosine axis, so is the sine (as the non of cosine)
We only worry about side force, as other wants to go home>>if no backlean etc.
Anchored rope to side is more like external Tapered Hinge as ballast offset against side force
>>that can persist after tear off tho...
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Forward pull or side pull forward are more like wedge ,
of added then relieved forces.
Wedge not straight across push,
but I view as a lift , converted through rotation on pivot to forward, not directly forward.
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For me wedge is safety backup and another serve towards target.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

I consider a wedge a push and I'll use a rope to counter the lean. And some times with side lean I'll tie off a tree opposite the lean, get the tree cut up standing on wedges and pull it over to the lay. It is pretty rare that I can just wedge a tree over. And even rarer that I can just flop a tree whole.

Ditto. But often it's two ropes, one to hold the lean, the other to pull into the lay. Wedges as back up.
We did a pine the other day that was snow loaded and bowed over a black oak and over a road. We used the Maasdam to keep puttin more tension on the guy opposite the lean. A tractor for the pull into the lay. Offset face splitting the difference between the lines. The tree cam up pretty straight save for the remainder of the bowed top, tractor pulling slow as needed with adjustments being done with the Maasdam and me cutting. Hinge was thick, over she went along side the closest fence next to the trunk, 90 out of head lean and in between a few young trees he did not want smacked and scared a gate. I would have liked another 15 degrees up hill, but alls well that lands well. No roads blocked, no trees, fences or gates smashed. Impressed homeowner. Homeowner clean up. Best of all worlds.

 

[murphy4trees]

@murphy4trees ... Do you ever use wedges as insurance Or strictly pull lines only?

I like to keep a few wedges and a 6-8 lb hammer in the tree truck.

Definitely will use them on heavy backleaners, but NEVER rely on them.

My old machine op has been out all summer and may not be coming back. Health issues. He understands what to do and what not to do and I could trust him to get a tree to the lay with good timing and proper force on the lines given the scenario and game plan. That kind of teamwork and understanding is going to be impossible to replace, but the radios will help when working with a rookie op. We'll have to see. I may end up using the wedges more often now.

 

[murphy4trees]

Ditto. But often it's two ropes, one to hold the lean, the other to pull into the lay. Wedges as back up.
We did a pine the other day that was snow loaded and bowed over a black oak and over a road. We used the Maasdam to keep puttin more tension on the guy opposite the lean. A tractor for the pull into the lay. Offset face splitting the difference between the lines. The tree cam up pretty straight save for the remainder of the bowed top, tractor pulling slow as needed with adjustments being done with the Maasdam and me cutting. Hinge was thick, over she went along side the closest fence next to the trunk, 90 out of head lean and in between a few young trees he did not want smacked and scared a gate. I would have liked another 15 degrees up hill, but alls well that lands well. No roads blocked, no trees, fences or gates smashed. Impressed homeowner. Homeowner clean up. Best of all worlds.

Your falling skills are impressive. Throw up a few more videos if you feel up to it.

 

[Tree09]

That's a lot of math... no matter how much trig you remember. I just do it by guestimation, with a strong reliance on fat hinges and multiple lines if needed.

Remember my day job is a pipefitter, so i do trig daily. Calculations like that are mandatory for serious rigging, and i have literally went to school for that. Overkill and likely unneeded, sure, but it's what i do.

 

[murphy4trees]

cool... thanks for sharing that.. I don't keep track. So how do you calculate weights?

 

[treebilly]

I got an app for that

seriously experience has thought me a lot and I have a reasonable understanding of what can and can’t be done. Not much different than Daniel.

 

[Frankie]

There is a formula you can use to convert the “tree” into face cords and from there depending on species get an “approximate” weight ... Of course you need to measure the diameter and average the ends .... LD/12 x .784 gives board feet , then BF x length /32 = face cords .... example 30” x 60ft long tree ... 30/12 x .784 = 1.96 ...... 1.96 x 60 /32 = 3.675 face cord ... reasonably accurate but a lot easier to measure when tree is on the ground (which kinda defeats the purpose lol)

 

[Tree09]

Torque=weight x distance. Calculate side and back lean, adding on one side and subtracting on the other side. You will come up with a number, and that is going to be the tipping force ignoring the hinge. Then you do the stick trick that i learned from you, and get thre height of your pull line. Once again figure torque needed to overcome the back lean, and remember to use the sling angle chart to make sure the rope you are using is within the wll. That's it. It really doesn't take too long.

Here's a crappy drawing illustrating it. K is 1000 pounds fyi.

 

[Frankie]

... ... surprising how much pull is needed especially on a heavy back leaner ... definitely need machines with pull

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Backleaner to me takes the CoG uphill to over hinge pivot as peak, then splash down on other side.
Takes some thinner hinge and more open face to allow the greater rotation
Usually deeper face as can to put hinge pivot as far as possible under CoG to give CoG least leverage against possible.
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i do prefer over the top strong point lacing and trace down backside to tie off above cut, with knot on back so is easy to get to for untying.
>>truck pull if used, is with plenty of gas, solid ground, weight in back and often from truck to low pulley to tree
>>so that no lift on rear of truck reducing friction as pulls forward, low pulley also good place for 2 prusik safteys on tree side a/n
>>can then even run truck perpendicular to fall..
Pulley system to compound truck pull force need run/distance multiplier equal to compounding multiplier
Pull should be ov overwhelming POTENTIAL, but only judiciously applied.
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Can't maximize on Tapered Hinge so easily keeping hinge thinner for greater rotation, already have complication of backlean so best if no side force anyway.
Greater sideLean is best with wider hinge of control, and this re-apportioning of hinge resistance allows use thinner hinge.
If there is, sideLean, best if soft, but may be fair time for Step Dutchman for splash down side, can even soften hit
>>as not pulling so hard into tree's maximum force direction, but rather 'bounced'/deflected to side somewhat.
More definitive time of wedge as safety backstop/cheap insurance, and some lift help at start, but otherwise rope dependent.

Ancient History Encyclopedia gives 4 paramount keys to Ancient Greek maths/logic that they invented/gave us carrying us thru to today and beyond:
"1. The technique of abstraction, based on ignoring physical considerations which are seen as merely incidental. Whether it was a rope, a piece of wood or any other physical object was irrelevant. It was all about properties of “straight lines” connecting at angles, nothing more. These lines are simply mental constructs and the only entity necessary to the solution of the problem. The process of abstraction is about getting rid of all the nonessential elements and considering only what is fundamental."
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i think we work with things in rawest forms, and above statement is all about us; more than most!
The other 3 paramounts are: generalization, deductive reasoning, and then arguments of deduction; they forever changed the world with these.
This is also a mnemonic to me, of on old ships they'd load rope onboard, but once placed into working position rope was then a 'line' /not rope.
i think of it as a line of force, carries into somethings drawn over years. They might craft rope art, but working rope was a line (at sea).
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Bringing things down to force lines, CoG, rigidity, rigid LENGTH etc. makes a schematic flow to me
>>just of the physical/not electrical force type schematic.

 

[lxskllr]

I got an app for that

That would be a good program idea, and I think it's in the realm of possibility. Take a picture of a tree, add lines where you want the cutoff points, name the species, and it'll estimate the weight taking foliage and time of year into account.

 

[murphy4trees]

Setting a high line and putting a test pull on it will tell me what I need to know...

 

[Tree09]

True, but if you tried to do that in construction you would likely kill some people, be on the news, and then commit suicide after a few months. Hence the math. So for me with my background, 5 min of math when I'm doing the bid is worth it.

 

[murphy4trees]

I appreciate that you CAN DO the math... that's pretty cool...
On the other hand, it is unnecessary in my world. I just MAKE SURE there is enough pulling power to get the tree moving. I have a good feel for that and will put a 28,000 lb bucket truck on the low end of the rope when needed.

The hinge must be the weak point, while strong enough to protect against side lean or failing to the side.

After that, all you need is enough power to make sure the tree is going over. If there is any question about that, throw another rope or two on it tied to separate machines, use MA with machines etc.

I would still be interested in your math. Terry Hale shows some in his videos and Grahame Mcmahon has shown the practical use of math to calculate rigging forces in highly technical applications...

The rest of the dumb tree cutters just do it by feel.

 

[Tree09]

I never said you were dumb, and yes Graeme does math on stuff. Just out if curiosity, what rope are you using for pulling with that much force? It obviously is up for it because you do massive pulls, I'm just curious

 

[Mick!]

Pulling trees over with machinery is the only time you start really testing breaking strains and stuff.

Telling new guys and the impulsive not to give it the full beans on the pedal from the off can be the biggest challenge.

 

[Frankie]

The only ME tool I have is a maasdam rope puller , no heavy equipment ... works well for what I do ... I wouldn’t trust it to pull a heavy back leaning tree though ... not enuff ass ... For straight up like a popsicle ash trees it works well as insurance

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Overwhelming force judiciously applied, especially with heavy equipment, 'gentle giant'.
Part of this can come from showing math.
In heavy equipment pull, rope can become fusible/over loadable link, that you don't want to blow out.
Should also be able, at least on occasion, 'tune' and true instincts to math verification.
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If have no idea of CoG principle nor location, then don't know if rope takes leverage over it.
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Clock metaphor try to present, immediately , in realtime gives thumbrule decoder key,
to show how much 'respect' to give something, by how much 'authority' it has in the shituation.
Can plot moves on chessboard by this, but also more clearly read and reflect why went wrong or right, even if not there sometimes, forensically, cuz got decoder key in common clock for angles and numbers.
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They eye can be fooled!