Dead fir removal - Treestuff promo
- Thread starter RegC
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Thor's Hammer
Wolfish. Sometimes Bites.
When I was 18, I went down to London to work for a few months. One day we were working at an Embassy (I forget which) and I was reducing a large maple with a handsaw. The last cut I made was a finishing cut taking off a small 2" stub, about 6" long. I tossed down through a clear bit of crown, about 60ft, and at the last second it clipped a low branch, sending it off at 90 degrees at high speed, and straight into the bullet proof glass window of the guard kiosk of the other Embassy next door.
It made a huge bang, and the guard inside leapt out with an AK47, thinking he was under attack. No damage done, but my heart took a while to slow back down under a 200 bpm....
It made a huge bang, and the guard inside leapt out with an AK47, thinking he was under attack. No damage done, but my heart took a while to slow back down under a 200 bpm....
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
I was out over a house last year bringing some limbs back from over the roof. Got a limb all roped up and ready to cut and took notice of a dead, partially rotted 10" long stub on the limb. I figured nip it off and toss it out of the tree so when the limb gets roped down and bangs into the tree, that stupid little piece doesnt shake off and hit groundman or anything. Grabbed it in one hand, sliced with the other, tossed the little piece back through the tree to fall out the other side of the crown. Nope. Hit a limb and ricochetted back towards the house, under a porch roof, and through a glass storm door window. One of those doors with 12 panes if glass. I was sick to my stomach. Groundman took a measurement, and left to go get a piece of glass cut. We had it replaced and caulked in and about dry by the time customer got home.
Naturally i called customer that night and told them what happened. I was digusted with myself. Customer was on the phone with me and examined the door. Told me I didnt break anything. I explained that I did, but we did a nice job replacing the glass. He argued. Insisted I was mistaken. Im like "Mr So&So, Im really not making this up. THis isnt something i find funny." I dont believe he ever really believed me when all was said and done. He seemed to think I was delusional.
Naturally i called customer that night and told them what happened. I was digusted with myself. Customer was on the phone with me and examined the door. Told me I didnt break anything. I explained that I did, but we did a nice job replacing the glass. He argued. Insisted I was mistaken. Im like "Mr So&So, Im really not making this up. THis isnt something i find funny." I dont believe he ever really believed me when all was said and done. He seemed to think I was delusional.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
Regarding my story about poplar through house. For anyone that is friends with me on facebook, please dont ever mention it there in any of our horseplay. His wife wouldnt like reading about it and remembering it. Its not something they talk about. Its no secret, but they personally dont rehash it, and i understand why.
August Hunicke
TreeHouser
"Now it feels great" ROFL
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
Cory had baggage he was holding onto. Its ok. Talk to the group. We are here for you. We can confront this demon with you Cory and face it and lay it to rest.
On a serious note, anyone thats been doing it long enough ends up doing something they wish they didnt do. The internet is nice for putting on the visad of professional excellence, but the reality is that we are all human. We've all made a shitty looking stump at some point, we've all missed our lay, we've all gotten spooked in a tree somewhere along the line(I still get spooked on occassion in certain trees), etc. Lots of good talent around here, but its safe to say we've all screwed up somewhere. And if you insist you havent, you've either not been at it long enough or your day is coming.
On a serious note, anyone thats been doing it long enough ends up doing something they wish they didnt do. The internet is nice for putting on the visad of professional excellence, but the reality is that we are all human. We've all made a shitty looking stump at some point, we've all missed our lay, we've all gotten spooked in a tree somewhere along the line(I still get spooked on occassion in certain trees), etc. Lots of good talent around here, but its safe to say we've all screwed up somewhere. And if you insist you havent, you've either not been at it long enough or your day is coming.
August Hunicke
TreeHouser
I didn't mean to kick off a confessional, I was only relating my experience with negative rigging logs via Clovehitch and agreeing that the way Reg did it was one key to avoiding disaster. I still use clove hitches for rigging at times when it's faster also. As far as the thread goes, confession is good for the soul. As a matter of fact, my policy on gutter dings and other minor mishaps (hopefully I am passed the major mishaps) is always confession to the property owner and a willingness to walk through whatever is required of me. That black cloud we've been talking about and know so well would only get blacker if we hid from it.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
Ive been sort of thinking about a few mishaps Ive had. I snapped some heavy bull line about 8 or 9 years back. Thought I could get away with butt hitching over some ridiculous sized silver maple and the groundman had too many wraps. POW!!!!! Log crashed down, and rope shot back yup the tree at me like a missile.
August Hunicke
TreeHouser
Hear hear, brilliant and eloquent truth.
August Hunicke
TreeHouser
Wow
August Hunicke
TreeHouser
Man, I'm sorry Cory, but I got ya beat. Just smashed a $13k carport this February. Leveled it to the ground when a piece of wet Red Oak squirted out of a choker on a crane-pic. Funny thing too: I've hated crane jobs for as long as I can remember, and our other removal foreman loves em. What do our bosses do, but give it to me. That'll learn em'.
Glad it wasn't over you when it squirted out.
RegC
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #63
Yeah you made it clear, I just didn't get the amen part.
I agree if you don't trust something you shouldn't use it. Last thing you want is to doubt something and to be proved right. There's probably things you would do that I wouldnt be so comfortable with either.
How it is for me, I don't doubt that particular knot on those shape of logs so long as I pay attention to where its positioned, that its properly set, and what's gonna happen when its loaded. A running bowline is a great cinching knot, but its also gonna damage or break before a clove. Low down we were having to stop those logs quite abruptly. While it has a high rating its still only a 14mm line....I'm not scorching my new rope on the first day. The videos only depict my choices, not what anyone else should do.
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
In rigging, I have a couple of big mishaps, but no real damage, just near miss. Well, very near...
For example, I was wrecking a 4' lombardi poplar, heavily topped a long time ago, so all the tree was built by big co leaders, except a 15' trunk. It stood in a corner, 3 ' on the back, a brick fence, and 5' on the right, a big garden shed ( halfly rotten is a bit excessive but you get the idea), shrubs, roses and an other fence a little farther on the other sides. My rigging point was on the front over the small LZ and I was cutting the last big chunk of a co-leader on the left, backleaning toward the fence. A big one for me, around 1600#. My gear's ratting was fine but I worried about the hight of the butt and the slack tending, related to the shed. My buddy told me "go for it in one piece, I don't want to take all the afternoon for that". Well well well ... I made my cut and put a wedge to push it over.
It took a nice swing, went around the tree and slowly aimed its travel to the roof's corner, sadly, a little too low as I expected.
Shitshitshit ...."Poc" !
I saw the whole structure starting to twist.
But the chunk has already eaten his kinetic energy and didn't push forward its advantage. It swung in reverse and the shed came back in place with only a small bruise on the tar/aluminum foil. WOW.
I was less lucky in felling some trees.
The first one real hard on my moral was a maple backleaning toward a wall. But it wasn't a big deal with a come along and there was enough room to fall it between the orchard trees, so I didn't climb to take it down (a low bid and "hurry hurry" job). What I didn't see is that a small limb, like 1" or 1,5", was entangled in the nearby tree. When the maple fell, the limb broke but it was enough to give a good tug just when the hinge gave away. The maple landed 20° to the side, crushing a beloved apple tree.
The last one for today: It was a lime tree, pollarded since a long time, close to the house. I can barely pass between the trunk and the gutter. I cut all the new limbs, but a massive head was leaning over the roof, no hight rigging point, so there was no way I could block it down without tearing the roof and the patio under it. I choose to fall it. The LZ wasn't very wide, but doable. On the left, there was a concrete path and on the right was the old brick fence. Figure some brick panels 9 ' long, 7 ' high, mounted between steel beams as fence posts.
The tricky part came from the irregular shape of the tree with those heavy heads. I aimed my cut carefully, run the chainsaw, wedged the tree over. It landed exactly where I wanted, yes ! but half a second later, it rolled on the right instead of settle down on the left. Gasp ! The big head (the one over the roof) ended on the fence's side, maybe just 4" too far, pushing and laying down a whole brick panel and wrecking it into pieces as a jigsaw puzzle.
I was even less happy as the woman next door came in her garden to see what happened with the BIG thud and discovered the mess. Shame on me.
Time to time, it seems that there is a disaster to put down your hight sens of yourself and your confidence.
Not pleasant at all, but maybe salutary.
For example, I was wrecking a 4' lombardi poplar, heavily topped a long time ago, so all the tree was built by big co leaders, except a 15' trunk. It stood in a corner, 3 ' on the back, a brick fence, and 5' on the right, a big garden shed ( halfly rotten is a bit excessive but you get the idea), shrubs, roses and an other fence a little farther on the other sides. My rigging point was on the front over the small LZ and I was cutting the last big chunk of a co-leader on the left, backleaning toward the fence. A big one for me, around 1600#. My gear's ratting was fine but I worried about the hight of the butt and the slack tending, related to the shed. My buddy told me "go for it in one piece, I don't want to take all the afternoon for that". Well well well ... I made my cut and put a wedge to push it over.
It took a nice swing, went around the tree and slowly aimed its travel to the roof's corner, sadly, a little too low as I expected.
Shitshitshit ...."Poc" !
I saw the whole structure starting to twist.
But the chunk has already eaten his kinetic energy and didn't push forward its advantage. It swung in reverse and the shed came back in place with only a small bruise on the tar/aluminum foil. WOW.
I was less lucky in felling some trees.
The first one real hard on my moral was a maple backleaning toward a wall. But it wasn't a big deal with a come along and there was enough room to fall it between the orchard trees, so I didn't climb to take it down (a low bid and "hurry hurry" job). What I didn't see is that a small limb, like 1" or 1,5", was entangled in the nearby tree. When the maple fell, the limb broke but it was enough to give a good tug just when the hinge gave away. The maple landed 20° to the side, crushing a beloved apple tree.
The last one for today: It was a lime tree, pollarded since a long time, close to the house. I can barely pass between the trunk and the gutter. I cut all the new limbs, but a massive head was leaning over the roof, no hight rigging point, so there was no way I could block it down without tearing the roof and the patio under it. I choose to fall it. The LZ wasn't very wide, but doable. On the left, there was a concrete path and on the right was the old brick fence. Figure some brick panels 9 ' long, 7 ' high, mounted between steel beams as fence posts.
The tricky part came from the irregular shape of the tree with those heavy heads. I aimed my cut carefully, run the chainsaw, wedged the tree over. It landed exactly where I wanted, yes ! but half a second later, it rolled on the right instead of settle down on the left. Gasp ! The big head (the one over the roof) ended on the fence's side, maybe just 4" too far, pushing and laying down a whole brick panel and wrecking it into pieces as a jigsaw puzzle.
I was even less happy as the woman next door came in her garden to see what happened with the BIG thud and discovered the mess. Shame on me.
Time to time, it seems that there is a disaster to put down your hight sens of yourself and your confidence.
Not pleasant at all, but maybe salutary.
August Hunicke
TreeHouser
Excellent writing, I feel quite well understood in this group.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Thought it was clear, amen means I concur. Imo a clove hitch is only good for sending up tools. I don't know how many times my block sling stretched out to the back up knots. I finally took it out of my arsenal. I actually use a steel biner and a bowline for most of my rigging lines. For slings I use loopies, cow hitch, timber hitch, whoopies, anything but a clove
August Hunicke
TreeHouser
For me, almost exclusively a locking steel snap (I like the heft of it for throwing). Half hitch ahead of it when necessary.
RegC
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #68
I am glad you posted, thanks for that. I would never use a clove for a block sling, or a tool for that matter.... But I've roped thousands of logs usimgna clove, without incident. Go figure. Last year I lost a log from the rigging for the first time ever. Using a strap to tip-tie a madrone....of no consequence mind, but it could have been. It was a shock when it happened, but was understanderble when I thought about it. I didn't blame the strap.
Mick!
TreeHouser
The throwability of a steel karabiner and the way it can swing back nice to your hand is a big plus.
Can get a nice rhythm going.
Can get a nice rhythm going.
bonner1040
Nick from Ohio
I smashed a mailbox on saturday. I was flopping this bulls*&% tree that was leaning over the house...dead ash, and I had to cheat it towards the mailbox to avoid the lamp pole.
$60 replacement from Lowes and moved on with my day. Proceeded to slay another handful of standing dead ash using most of the tricks i know. All without incident.
$60 replacement from Lowes and moved on with my day. Proceeded to slay another handful of standing dead ash using most of the tricks i know. All without incident.
August Hunicke
TreeHouser
Mailbox prolly deserved it
August Hunicke
TreeHouser
Exactly
SouthSoundTree
Treehouser
and you can aggressively snag it with a saw blade or a pole hook, as needed.
SouthSoundTree
Treehouser
Funny, I generally shy away from a clove hitch with tie-off over a running bowline.
A good thing that you point out, Reg, is that you don't have to work the rope back down from up high up as with a running bowline with a half-hitch or marl.
A good think about the clove for mid-tying over a RB with HH/ Marl is that if you guess the mid point wrong, or it does some sorta tumble and bounce off of something before really loading the knot and snugging it into place with a few hundred pounds of force, it loads fine from either direction. A RB/ hh would slide out maybe if loaded from the wrong end in a fluke-y situation.
PS. I'm not going to jinx myself.
I've told customers more than once that when the conditions aren't critical (easier jobs not over, say a house) if you're not scaring things your not making money. The jobs that nobody wants might have a bit more budge room to keep the profit margin, but the $400 removal job that anybody can do, will only make you money if you do it quickly.
We scared the crap out of stuff all the time at SPs. Sorta like getting your practice of felling in while logging in the open, then going residential. Helped to have Maintenance workers at each park. We took out a few things that were unimportant, like a water spigot. The recycled plastic tables are about 300#, so generally needed a tractor or us overusing our bodies unnecessarily. There was not time to move each table all the time. My Super had a day where he quit moving tables because he kept doing more than scaring when they were moved. I took out a big cemented in grill early at SPs. The Ranger moved it just barely enough if I hit the lay dead on, between the CCC shelter, and keeper trees with a 40" fir with advanced Phellinus pini, red ring rot. It was faced up and breezy when I was were he hit it behind keeper trees, barely. I wasn't going to call for him to go back in there with the tractor. Hoping didn't do it. At the same time, we didn't damage stuff often at all, especially considering the size of trees, and the advanced decay or dead way they were.
A good thing that you point out, Reg, is that you don't have to work the rope back down from up high up as with a running bowline with a half-hitch or marl.
A good think about the clove for mid-tying over a RB with HH/ Marl is that if you guess the mid point wrong, or it does some sorta tumble and bounce off of something before really loading the knot and snugging it into place with a few hundred pounds of force, it loads fine from either direction. A RB/ hh would slide out maybe if loaded from the wrong end in a fluke-y situation.
PS. I'm not going to jinx myself.
I've told customers more than once that when the conditions aren't critical (easier jobs not over, say a house) if you're not scaring things your not making money. The jobs that nobody wants might have a bit more budge room to keep the profit margin, but the $400 removal job that anybody can do, will only make you money if you do it quickly.
We scared the crap out of stuff all the time at SPs. Sorta like getting your practice of felling in while logging in the open, then going residential. Helped to have Maintenance workers at each park. We took out a few things that were unimportant, like a water spigot. The recycled plastic tables are about 300#, so generally needed a tractor or us overusing our bodies unnecessarily. There was not time to move each table all the time. My Super had a day where he quit moving tables because he kept doing more than scaring when they were moved. I took out a big cemented in grill early at SPs. The Ranger moved it just barely enough if I hit the lay dead on, between the CCC shelter, and keeper trees with a 40" fir with advanced Phellinus pini, red ring rot. It was faced up and breezy when I was were he hit it behind keeper trees, barely. I wasn't going to call for him to go back in there with the tractor. Hoping didn't do it. At the same time, we didn't damage stuff often at all, especially considering the size of trees, and the advanced decay or dead way they were.
NHlocal
TreeHouser
Between working my full time job and "part time" tree work I've been pretty busy, and that's a good thing. 
But I haven't been able to get over here much. I just came in and saw this thread and read through the whole thing, after watching the video of course.
Great video Reg.
I always enjoy seeing work like that done "at height". You have a good man running the ropes, very smooth. 
There's no doubt I haven't done the amount or difficulty of trees that you all have done but, one of the first rigging knots that I learned(with confidence)
was the clove hitch. I haven't had one fail yet. I do use the running bowline a lot also but, I like the clove for all the reasons that Reg and others have
already given. Jerry's Working Climber DVD's were the only teacher I had. He gave very good instruction on how, when, and why to use it.
Definitely not "knocking" any other method/technique, just sharing a bit of my experiences.
I also know I haven't been at it "long enough" 'cause I haven't had any "catastrophic" failures. I have had many VERY close calls that didn't go bad.
Almost lost a large Red oak top through a roof while my hand was being pulled into a Portawrap.....
Keeps me humble and "careful".
Thanks for the video Reg, look forward to more.....
But I haven't been able to get over here much. I just came in and saw this thread and read through the whole thing, after watching the video of course.
Great video Reg.
I always enjoy seeing work like that done "at height". You have a good man running the ropes, very smooth. There's no doubt I haven't done the amount or difficulty of trees that you all have done but, one of the first rigging knots that I learned(with confidence)
was the clove hitch. I haven't had one fail yet. I do use the running bowline a lot also but, I like the clove for all the reasons that Reg and others have
already given. Jerry's Working Climber DVD's were the only teacher I had. He gave very good instruction on how, when, and why to use it.
Definitely not "knocking" any other method/technique, just sharing a bit of my experiences.
I also know I haven't been at it "long enough" 'cause I haven't had any "catastrophic" failures. I have had many VERY close calls that didn't go bad.
Almost lost a large Red oak top through a roof while my hand was being pulled into a Portawrap.....
Keeps me humble and "careful".
Thanks for the video Reg, look forward to more.....
