X Rigging Rings, thoughts
- Thread starter RegC
- Start date
- Replies 361
- Views 58K
treebilly
Student of the Jedi. OH-7106A
Damn you beat me to the patent office Reg. Two years of prototyping and testing wasted!
SouthSoundTree-
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2014
- Messages
- 4,941
Early bird gets the worm!
PCTREE
Treehouser
Is that a sexual innuendo?
SouthSoundTree-
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2014
- Messages
- 4,941
Actually a fallacy I've been told, but without confirmation. The later-in-the-day-eating birds have more food in them by the time of the cold temperatures of night, whereas the early bird does get the worm, but is pushed off by more dominant birds later in the day for feeding opportunities. Dunno for sure.
rangerdanger
TreeHouser
I don't, those are just rings I've seen in my travels and working with various crews. The only rings I have are two medium single ring slings Treestuff sent me.
I get your analogy about the spider jack, I just watched most of the video and wanted to respond. The spider jack analogy is an excellent example and is the same thing I was saying. The amount of friction in the system doesn't change, it's just distributed between the clutch and rings, instead of just the clutch if you were to climb off a pulley. Same thing with the antal rings, the friction gets distributed between the rings and port o wrap, where as with a block the majority of friction is at the port o wrap.
Now in theory, and maybe Nick Bonner or Carl Rutherford will chime in and say if I'm wrong or right on this, but the rigging point will see a slight decrease in the load, because the added friction at the tip means less weight is required to hold the load stationary on the running end of line, so the load should be slightly lower on the tip. How much lower, I don't know, but I wouldn't imagine enough to make a huge difference.
rangerdanger
TreeHouser
Not unless you want to be threatened with a lawsuit.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
I am betting fairly marginal but enough to make some difference on 800# plus loads
RegC
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #60
Its not a theory, its a fact....and a pretty standard practice now for at least as long as Ive been doing treework. Ive been at this for a while now, Adrian. I dont feel like I need Nick and Carl to tell me how to rig trees. Who is Carl Rutherford by the way ? It is actually really easy to simulate a rigging point failure on a very small tree, setting up a frictionless force multiplier, be-that a simple 2:1,....as it is also easy to simulate redirected forces (line angles) and friction making it almost impossible to break the same rigging point with the same load as before. Like I said in the video, the rings lend themselves very well in this situation....a combined effect of friction, line angles and redirects....but not to the extent that the friction created is an inconvenience. There has to be a happy medium.
Adrian Ive met you a few times now and you always came across as a good natured and respectful young man. So, I really dont get the snide remarks about lawsuits and general bashing of a product that you admittedly havent had a lot to do with. So, whats the issue here ? Is it me, or David driver, or what ? Speak your mind.
brendonv
Tree Hugger
Really.......really?
Representation of the owner spoiled my need or interest in thier product.
Id go antal if i ever needed any.
Two cmi blocks, a pinto rig, and thirteen years later is all ive needed tho m
Really cool of you to try to share with others your thoughts on a product Reg.
The opposition stems mainly from dislike of me from my past forum experiences with individuals. I was quite hard on people in the past.
Several people contacted me on the side and said I should take a look at this thread. I haven't read all the pages yet, gotta get to work.
Reg showed this video on arbtalk, I had responded there; so for now, maybe I'll try to copy and paste it here before I go.
If I get some time during the job today, maybe I'll step aside, use my gopro and do an video explaining the past for treehouse users that don't know.
a lot easier to explain on video instead of typing it all out, plus you get better interaction.
The opposition stems mainly from dislike of me from my past forum experiences with individuals. I was quite hard on people in the past.
Several people contacted me on the side and said I should take a look at this thread. I haven't read all the pages yet, gotta get to work.
Reg showed this video on arbtalk, I had responded there; so for now, maybe I'll try to copy and paste it here before I go.
If I get some time during the job today, maybe I'll step aside, use my gopro and do an video explaining the past for treehouse users that don't know.
a lot easier to explain on video instead of typing it all out, plus you get better interaction.
I don't know what this lawsuit stuff is about. (but I'm sure you will tell me)
There is Brendonv! That's almost the full group now maybe, I'll check the other pages later.
It should be: tophopper, Brendonv, Lumberjack, Adam P, RangerDanger and Stig.
They all have a deep hatred of me. I must have scared them deeply.
With some people it stays with them.
There is Brendonv! That's almost the full group now maybe, I'll check the other pages later.
It should be: tophopper, Brendonv, Lumberjack, Adam P, RangerDanger and Stig.
They all have a deep hatred of me. I must have scared them deeply.
With some people it stays with them.
Pasted from ArbTalk, so ignore the European links:
Good job explaining Reg. Some of the same topics XRR users have been trying to pass on for several years now, but it sure helps when someone well known explains it in their own words.
I respect you more and more. I know you are associated with certain products, but these rings have nothing to do with you, so it shows me that you care about other's safety and you want to truly give useful information to your subscribers. I'm sorry to say this, but I always thought you only gave a review of a product or did a video when it had monetary value in it for you. Now I see first-hand that you don’t have to be associated with a product to share information on it. I’m sorry I thought that; I just figured you would not have time unless you were paid to do so, we all gotta work.
The X-Rigging Rings are not a hyped up tool.
The more that people actually try them out, the more they will become the main tool people will go to when rigging down trees. No exaggeration. That’s just what is going to happen.
I'm a small tree service owner and very small arborist supply company owner.
I was told in the beginning that rigging tools are very slow to spread the news and sell. Good climbing products spread fast and sell fast, but not rigging tools.
Well, I tried to change that and these rings have spread in popularity quite fast. It has been very expensive to do so; testing, shows, testing, expos, testing, giving away samples and testing and filming.
Now if a product was crap, no matter how much money and time I put into promoting it, it would fail. These X-Rigging Rings are no failure, they are growing in popularity because they are truly a better tool to be using.
It looks like Paul that works in Japan tried to put the friction in words, he tried to show a scale, instead of using % he might have been more understood if he used numbers.
Say, 10 being natural crotch rigging. 0 being a pulley/block. These rings are around a 2 to a 3 in that scale on friction.
I would agree with this.
Lots of questions on where to purchase them in European Countries.
TreeKit which is a sponsor of this site, I think, has them in stock. They sell them individually and spliced to slings.
X-Rigging Ring - Featured Products
TreeStuff (a sponser of arbtalk) and Sherrill in the USA also ships worldwide.
I kept looking for a reputable distributor in Europe that could take on larger quantities and supply small shops.
There must be lots of very small shops all around Europe, because none of them could take on many rings at a time. Some would ask for just 2 rings of each size. This was going to kill me.
Then, finally one larger company contacted me from Germany. FreeTree is the arborist tool store, but they are part of a group of climbing schools and they also put out technical articles and perform testing. When I looked into them, they seem to have a passion for arboriculture and want to advance the industry. They also respected the work I invested in using and promoting this type of ring.
www.die-nuernberger.info - Translator
or the freetree site: X-Rigging Ring - 38x28 mm
They expect to have their completed SLING configurations on-line THIS week; any day now. They have had the rings for a long time now, but they wanted to do testing and gets things just right. We supply any supporter with the information we have learned over the years, we send them sling designs, videos, advertising material and advice.
Antal in Italy makes the X-Rigging Rings for us. They are not experts in arborist rigging operations, they are experts in marine/sailing tools. I put their rings to use in my tree service in 2011. After seeing how great they performed, I asked if I could introduce them to my industry and I would educate, test and determine the safe working practices for them. In turn, they imprint them as X-RIGGING RINGS. The X is for my social media name; The X man. Also for Xtreme Arborist supply, the arb supply company I started. About a year later we asked antal if they would make a larger ring, the extra large beast 38x28 ring. I gave them the dimensions and they said yes and produced it.
Now, you see me write the word “supporter” at times when I talk about companies that sell the X-Rigging Rings. What I mean by this is people or companies that recognized that I put a lot into this and want to sell the rings marked X-Rigging Rings.
Yes, the antal marked ring is physically the same exact ring except for the lettering on it. I would assume that if there was an accident or some problem with antal marked rings used in arborist rigging; they might immediately say that it was not used in sail rigging as they were intended for. I’m not saying they would try to weasel out of it. I’m just saying THAT would be the probable, honest reaction, because it’s being used in a way that they don’t have experience with. They are a very stand up reputable company that makes high quality gear, they are in the marine industry.
The antal marked rings and the X-Rigging Ring prices should be near the very same. Whether you get them wholesale as a distributor or whether you are an individual buying one ring from an arb store.
So, why not get the ones marked X-Rigging Rings and support the guy that put effort into them?
I have learned that in the modern day product business, there are few with honesty and integrity. As soon as some big businesses learned that antal made the X-Rigging Rings, they tried to cut me out and see if they could get rings straight from antal cheaper. All the work I did, all the money invested. Not even a thanks.
Luckily the North American antal distributor is honest and has integrity. They respected the work I put into these X-Rigging Rings and told the arb stores to work with me.
Now in Europe it’s going through that phase right now. Some want to use the marked X-Rigging Rings, some didn’t even ask for my pricing and assumed if they bought marine rings they were getting a better price.
I picked the X-Rigging Rings as the first major product because it was already being made and the easiest to take on. I learned that even the “easiest” is NOT EASY. But we are doing it.
The THT is my own designed product and I have a lot more products to bring from paper to product. Only supporters will get these new products, I guarantee that. After seeing the benefit of some friction in the rings, I wanted more friction and created a “top-of-the-tree” friction device. The THT.
I wrote an article a few months ago on ‘Where Should Friction Be in our Rigging Systems?’. ArbClimber Magazine will post it in their spring issue magazine. I think it’s issue 7. I wish it would be published sooner, because it touches on the many things discussed in this thread. The old strops, friction, how much rope is being used, etc.
Good job explaining Reg. Some of the same topics XRR users have been trying to pass on for several years now, but it sure helps when someone well known explains it in their own words.
I respect you more and more. I know you are associated with certain products, but these rings have nothing to do with you, so it shows me that you care about other's safety and you want to truly give useful information to your subscribers. I'm sorry to say this, but I always thought you only gave a review of a product or did a video when it had monetary value in it for you. Now I see first-hand that you don’t have to be associated with a product to share information on it. I’m sorry I thought that; I just figured you would not have time unless you were paid to do so, we all gotta work.
The X-Rigging Rings are not a hyped up tool.
The more that people actually try them out, the more they will become the main tool people will go to when rigging down trees. No exaggeration. That’s just what is going to happen.
I'm a small tree service owner and very small arborist supply company owner.
I was told in the beginning that rigging tools are very slow to spread the news and sell. Good climbing products spread fast and sell fast, but not rigging tools.
Well, I tried to change that and these rings have spread in popularity quite fast. It has been very expensive to do so; testing, shows, testing, expos, testing, giving away samples and testing and filming.
Now if a product was crap, no matter how much money and time I put into promoting it, it would fail. These X-Rigging Rings are no failure, they are growing in popularity because they are truly a better tool to be using.
It looks like Paul that works in Japan tried to put the friction in words, he tried to show a scale, instead of using % he might have been more understood if he used numbers.
Say, 10 being natural crotch rigging. 0 being a pulley/block. These rings are around a 2 to a 3 in that scale on friction.
I would agree with this.
Lots of questions on where to purchase them in European Countries.
TreeKit which is a sponsor of this site, I think, has them in stock. They sell them individually and spliced to slings.
X-Rigging Ring - Featured Products
TreeStuff (a sponser of arbtalk) and Sherrill in the USA also ships worldwide.
I kept looking for a reputable distributor in Europe that could take on larger quantities and supply small shops.
There must be lots of very small shops all around Europe, because none of them could take on many rings at a time. Some would ask for just 2 rings of each size. This was going to kill me.
Then, finally one larger company contacted me from Germany. FreeTree is the arborist tool store, but they are part of a group of climbing schools and they also put out technical articles and perform testing. When I looked into them, they seem to have a passion for arboriculture and want to advance the industry. They also respected the work I invested in using and promoting this type of ring.
www.die-nuernberger.info - Translator
or the freetree site: X-Rigging Ring - 38x28 mm
They expect to have their completed SLING configurations on-line THIS week; any day now. They have had the rings for a long time now, but they wanted to do testing and gets things just right. We supply any supporter with the information we have learned over the years, we send them sling designs, videos, advertising material and advice.
Antal in Italy makes the X-Rigging Rings for us. They are not experts in arborist rigging operations, they are experts in marine/sailing tools. I put their rings to use in my tree service in 2011. After seeing how great they performed, I asked if I could introduce them to my industry and I would educate, test and determine the safe working practices for them. In turn, they imprint them as X-RIGGING RINGS. The X is for my social media name; The X man. Also for Xtreme Arborist supply, the arb supply company I started. About a year later we asked antal if they would make a larger ring, the extra large beast 38x28 ring. I gave them the dimensions and they said yes and produced it.
Now, you see me write the word “supporter” at times when I talk about companies that sell the X-Rigging Rings. What I mean by this is people or companies that recognized that I put a lot into this and want to sell the rings marked X-Rigging Rings.
Yes, the antal marked ring is physically the same exact ring except for the lettering on it. I would assume that if there was an accident or some problem with antal marked rings used in arborist rigging; they might immediately say that it was not used in sail rigging as they were intended for. I’m not saying they would try to weasel out of it. I’m just saying THAT would be the probable, honest reaction, because it’s being used in a way that they don’t have experience with. They are a very stand up reputable company that makes high quality gear, they are in the marine industry.
The antal marked rings and the X-Rigging Ring prices should be near the very same. Whether you get them wholesale as a distributor or whether you are an individual buying one ring from an arb store.
So, why not get the ones marked X-Rigging Rings and support the guy that put effort into them?
I have learned that in the modern day product business, there are few with honesty and integrity. As soon as some big businesses learned that antal made the X-Rigging Rings, they tried to cut me out and see if they could get rings straight from antal cheaper. All the work I did, all the money invested. Not even a thanks.
Luckily the North American antal distributor is honest and has integrity. They respected the work I put into these X-Rigging Rings and told the arb stores to work with me.
Now in Europe it’s going through that phase right now. Some want to use the marked X-Rigging Rings, some didn’t even ask for my pricing and assumed if they bought marine rings they were getting a better price.
I picked the X-Rigging Rings as the first major product because it was already being made and the easiest to take on. I learned that even the “easiest” is NOT EASY. But we are doing it.
The THT is my own designed product and I have a lot more products to bring from paper to product. Only supporters will get these new products, I guarantee that. After seeing the benefit of some friction in the rings, I wanted more friction and created a “top-of-the-tree” friction device. The THT.
I wrote an article a few months ago on ‘Where Should Friction Be in our Rigging Systems?’. ArbClimber Magazine will post it in their spring issue magazine. I think it’s issue 7. I wish it would be published sooner, because it touches on the many things discussed in this thread. The old strops, friction, how much rope is being used, etc.
To go along with my friction article I wrote, I threw together a video. With so much going on, it's hard to find any time, so this video could have been much better; but who knows when I would ever have finished it. (I have videos I started over 2 years ago, just waiting for me to ever get some time.)
This is not an entertainment video; it is for those that want to see how we are using the rings and also how we use the X-Rigging THT.
To those that say they would never trust using X-Rigging Rings for large heavy wood; I would say that during my ignorance 3 years ago, I would have likely said the same thing. Now, using them exclusively for big wood over the past year, I'll never go back to a block for big wood lowering ever again. (Even I was slow to try them when it came to the BIG negative rigging; I was so use to using blocks for most of my whole career).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyL6Ex5vY_Y
This is not an entertainment video; it is for those that want to see how we are using the rings and also how we use the X-Rigging THT.
To those that say they would never trust using X-Rigging Rings for large heavy wood; I would say that during my ignorance 3 years ago, I would have likely said the same thing. Now, using them exclusively for big wood over the past year, I'll never go back to a block for big wood lowering ever again. (Even I was slow to try them when it came to the BIG negative rigging; I was so use to using blocks for most of my whole career).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyL6Ex5vY_Y
flushcut
TreeHouser
I think it was the way you brought the product to market.
I like the idea of xrings but they just don't fit into my rigging scheme, now that THT , I think, thing looks interesting.
I like the idea of xrings but they just don't fit into my rigging scheme, now that THT , I think, thing looks interesting.
Reddog
TreeHouser
Reg,
He can't speak his mind cause Driver threatened everyone with a lawsuit who was telling the truth about manufacture and pricing.
So chew on that while you try and sell us on something that left a pretty shitty taste in more than a few mouths.
Funny how white washed the TB thread is now.
Sponsor ship money there lets you do a lot of thread/threat clean up.
:edit while I was typing I see Driver is trying to cover tracks again.
He can't speak his mind cause Driver threatened everyone with a lawsuit who was telling the truth about manufacture and pricing.
So chew on that while you try and sell us on something that left a pretty shitty taste in more than a few mouths.
Funny how white washed the TB thread is now.
Sponsor ship money there lets you do a lot of thread/threat clean up.
:edit while I was typing I see Driver is trying to cover tracks again.
I don't expect this thread to get any more positive. There are a lot of haters in treehouse and sharing of useful information is likely going to be covered up by a shit-storm. I may have actually enjoyed that a few years ago, but I don't care much for that anymore and don't have the time.
I just wanted others to realize, it's not the product they hate, it is me. I'll explain my side of the avoiding the antal question back in 2012 or so, when I was first asked. That is what I should put on video today if I get a chance.
later,
I just wanted others to realize, it's not the product they hate, it is me. I'll explain my side of the avoiding the antal question back in 2012 or so, when I was first asked. That is what I should put on video today if I get a chance.
later,
brendonv
Tree Hugger
Not sure where your getting there is a hate club?
Why did x treme arb supply sour my view originally? Remember when you "introduced" your favorite pair of gloves? It was a big secret until they were available on your site (hiding manufacturer logos) so they could only be bought from you for an inflated price. I kinda giggled. Secrecy and the events followed, spoiled the taste for me with all products. Im entitled to that, aren't I? Id never buy a dodge as my bros trans locked up at 5,000 miles. Im entitled to say that and think how id like.
Your products might be cream of the crop, who knows. I have no use for them.
Why did x treme arb supply sour my view originally? Remember when you "introduced" your favorite pair of gloves? It was a big secret until they were available on your site (hiding manufacturer logos) so they could only be bought from you for an inflated price. I kinda giggled. Secrecy and the events followed, spoiled the taste for me with all products. Im entitled to that, aren't I? Id never buy a dodge as my bros trans locked up at 5,000 miles. Im entitled to say that and think how id like.
Your products might be cream of the crop, who knows. I have no use for them.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Drama
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
I rig out of crotches a lot and don't give a shit about the Internet tree gear/clique scene.
wiley_p
Climbing Up
Wow.
RegC
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #75
Listen, I started this thread with he best of intentions. Theres a difference between selling and sharing. This lawsuit that you speak of sound pretty unlikely to actually materialize unless theres grounds. You cant win a lawsuit purely because somebody spoke of Antal availability and pricing. So, why dont you just say what you know. Id like to hear what the bad taste is truly about.
