What's the Definition of Snake Oil Sales in the Tree Biz?

[RopeArmour]

And a good salesman could convince you to cable every lateral limb over a walkway or house, just in case?

Where does the science end and the snake oil sales start?

Jomo

I think it started about 6 or so yrs ago when wind storms got bad and a few successive ice storms here in Cambridge.
People wnat their tree but not the roof fixed and the truck in the repari shop.
Today for example she wants the tree cut down but grew up next door and loving/growing up with this tree but the recent storm damage is to much of burden.
I have gone threw this before with clients. She will regret and grieve the loss. She will be far happier with the percieved loss of coin and coin and stress with maintaining a lovely tree.

I shouold also state minor failures are acceptable and probabley beneficial in most trees but a major failure will quickly bring down the axe.

 

[RopeArmour]

So essentially an appropriately colored and tied polyester rope could achieve the same effect at a lower cost?

Jomo

Shhh!

 

[RopeArmour]

Sorry I shushed you. No one is suppose to no please delete please delete resistance is futile!

 

[Jomo]

I'm completely flabbergasted and appalled by how many reputable arborists and arborist associations promote and peddle these snake oil cabling systems like Cobra etc.

Scientifically embarrassing IMO.

Jomo

 

[Pelorus]

A dynamic "non invasive" cabling system whose strength significantly deteriorates each and every year after installation has never appealed to me. A revenue stream I have no interest in wading through.

 

[rumination]

Cobra sells like hotcakes here in Hong Kong. Drives me batty the way it's overused and misused.

 

[Jomo]

Might make sense for a citrus grower who installs them each season, unfailingly?

Jomo

 

[Bermy]

So when would you use it?
I see its use as a last option almost a 'failsafe', if someone really wants a tree or parts of it retained and I think there is a fairly significant risk due to defects and surrounding targets, but that it can be mitigated or reduced by a system that will at least 'catch and hold' if there is a catastophic failure, then why not?

I've got a situation coming up, an historically and horticulturally significant weeping ash, right next to a house, grandkids all over the place, low sweeping heavy branches with some defects from old tearouts and previous pruning. In 10yrs of doing tree work this is like only the second time I think a cobra system migh be part of the fix. Alternate to that would be a prop of some kind.

Isn't part of the deal that you put minimal tension on the system, allowing the branches to still move and sway, but have the gear up there ready to catch and hold? Or do I have it wrong.

 

[rumination]

Fiona, in my experience, Cobra in that kind of situation should be made as tight as possible by hand (no winch) with the shock absorber installed. That should allow a fair amount of natural movement while limiting extreme oscillation in high wind events. If Cobra is left too loose then it does nothing to prevent the failure, just catches the branch when it finally does fail.

 

[Jomo]

Right here in San Diego's Balboa Park, directly in front of The Natural History Museum, there's a huge spreading Moreton Bay fig tree, the last tree in the world that'd ever need cabling support, due to its aerial rooting characteristics, with almost 40 figgin cables in it!

None that I ever installed mind you!

But I was tasked with replacing them with new cables and hardware when possible. Took me two weeks to do it.

Not one of the cables put into that tree since it was planted at the Balboa World Exposition so long ago can be justified.

They are an ongoing liability for the tree. Interestingly it's an aerial rooting species of ficus that can be coaxed into supporting itself over time, could in fact be utilized to slowly make each cable on each branch redundant, once the aerials have rooted themselves sufficiently over time.

Quote:

The extensive landscaping the Exposition brought to the Park has earned it the moniker, the "Garden Fair." The Park's landmark tree is the Moreton Bay fig growing north of the Natural History Museum. This tree, planted before 1915, is over 60 feet tall with a spread of 120 feet. Also built for the 1915-16 Exposition, along with the adjacent Lily Pond, the historic Botanical Building is one of the largest lath structures in the world. The view of the Botanical Building with the Lily Pond in the foreground is one of the most photographed scenes in Balboa Park.

Unquote.

Danny Simpson at the San Diego Zoo has done demonstrations and written articles on Moreton Bay Fig strategic aerial root propagation using perforated PVC tubing, sphagnum moss and water drip systems at the desired structural point on the limb.

It could be done, though the chances of it happening during the current recession are slim to none sadly.

Jomo

 

[Bermy]

And there you have it.

I admit to never having installed any, just some 'make do' inventions of my own, but I'm seeing some situations where I thought it could be of use.
Sounds like it is misused to quite an extent to make Jomo so...annoyed about it.

 

[Jomo]

Interesting and extremely pertinent reading here on plant reaction wood processes termed thigmomorphogenesis.

https://ag.purdue.edu/fnr/associations/IAA/Documents/BiomechanicsOfTreesTelewski.pdf

Jomo

I submit that the link above, and its documented conclusions, constitute irrefutable proof that the entire logic of the cobra cabling system is flawed, unbacked by any scientific evidence. Otherwise tree planters in wind prone areas would leave their saplings dynamically staked. Rather than explicitly stating in no uncertain terms that all dynamic staking be removed entirely after one season, two at the latest.

I could tear them apart in court with just the published literature alone.

Jomo

 

[flushcut]

A dynamic "non invasive" cabling system whose strength significantly deteriorates each and every year after installation has never appealed to me. A revenue stream I have no interest in wading through.

True but even static systems need to be inspected regularly.
I have never sold a Cobra system and doubt I ever will as most folks around here will buy a static system after it has split, and is now living on borrowed time.

 

[Jomo]

True but even static systems need to be inspected regularly.
I have never sold a Cobra system and doubt I ever will as most folks around here will buy a static system after it has split, and is now living on borrowed time.

The owner of one of the bigger commercial tree services here locally had done well enough at last to buy his dream home, a ranch with electric gates.

Calls me saying his Chinese elm split in half, one half lying in his driveway. But wants me to look at it cabling wise before one of the crews chips it.

Only about an 8 inch DBH when it split, about 6 feet vertically, half on the driveway, half still upright and relatively stable.
Long story short, put three strategically placed 1/2 inch rods in the trunk, and one static steel cable with throughbolts 3 feet above the split, zipped it back together.

No evidence that the now 12-14 inch elm ever split, except by looking closely for the cable, 12 years later.

Jomo

 

[treelooker]

The owner of one of the bigger commercial tree services here locally had done well enough at last to buy his dream home, a ranch with electric gates.

Calls me saying his Chinese elm split in half, one half lying in his driveway. But wants me to look at it cabling wise before one of the crews chips it.

Only about an 8 inch DBH when it split, about 6 feet vertically, half on the driveway, half still upright and relatively stable.
Long story short, put three strategically placed 1/2 inch rods in the trunk, and one static steel cable with throughbolts 3 feet above the split, zipped it back together.

No evidence that the now 12-14 inch elm ever split, except by looking closely for the cable, 12 years later.

Jomo

Got a camera?

You can lean on Telewski all you want but I think he would agree with the rationale for occasional use of dynamic, as thigmo...is sometimes too slow.

 

[Jomo]

Then why would telewski explicitly state that no dynamic support be present after two seasons Guy?

Why? Cuz he dont want his saplings weakened. It really is that simple.

En Garde yu land lubber!

Jomo

 

[Jomo]

There's a wealth of knowledge and potential customers in just about every city's gardening clubs.

Contrast and color are cherished by exotic plant societies.

I propose blending their plants into the structures of their trees. Systems allowing the swapping of pots/plants in the tree as seasons and bloom times change.

 

[MasterBlaster]

What's up with that?

 

[Jomo]

That's the gardening friend's Tipu tree. The tree now has 3 spools attached to its base, 4 lines on each spool. Each line is a watering hose with an inner stainless steel cable that actually supports the weight of the hanging pot/plants, while the hose is set to an automatic timer to water each spool individually.

Projects about a year old, quite unique, and a little pricey.

Be it ever so minor, the weighting of each plant as its watered, and the resulting slow dissipation of that weight afterward, does over time strengthen the tree's laterals along with other factors like wind causing the pots to sway dynamically about.

The whole crazy idea is the result of meeting an eccentric old lady client that I was removing a red gum Lerp Psyllid kill for over her house. At lunch I was strolling around her property and came across a magnificent lemon euc with large lower laterals, to which this old lady attached bowling balls hanging from trampoline springs!

I stood there marveling at the syncopated choreography of the balls and limbs bouncing and swaying in the afternoon wind.
Thinking to myself the whole time either this old lady's either whacko, or brilliant?

Once the job was over, I politely quizzed about the bowling balls and springs in her euc?

Oh that? That's my spring summer exercise routine for those limbs. I take em down each fall, and hang em up each spring!

I respect my elders, particularly eccentric old ladies!

Jomo

 

[SouthSoundTree]

So essentially an appropriately colored and tied polyester rope could achieve the same effect at a lower cost?

Jomo

stretch, abrasion resistance, longevity, etc are factors.

Jon, I don't understand you're concern about something that is only supposed to limit peak forces (dynamic) will weaken a tree. The idea (when reasonably applied, in a holistic sense) is that it keep the tree strengthening without breaking. Static cables keep the tree from having as much strain and strength gain, from what I can surmise.


How is your static alignment gun-thingy idea for J lags? Still working on it?

 

[SouthSoundTree]

I submit that the link above, and its documented conclusions, constitute irrefutable proof that the entire logic of the cobra cabling system is flawed, unbacked by any scientific evidence. Otherwise tree planters in wind prone areas would leave their saplings dynamically staked. Rather than explicitly stating in no uncertain terms that all dynamic staking be removed entirely after one season, two at the latest.

I could tear them apart in court with just the published literature alone.

Jomo

Is guying a transplanted sapling indicative of what is appropriate for cabling a union?

 

[Jomo]

It's a scientific fact that can't be overcome by all the fast talk in the world, that artificial support weakens a tree/limb with no structural defect over time.

There's no if about it.

Telewski proved it, along with myriad other horticultural PhD's, in growing houses, in controlled conditions.

This whole thread is based on the fact that cyclical moderate stresses to limbs and trees is the only means of strengthening them. Precisely as Mother Nature does.

Telewski's not telling us to put dynamic artificial support into any tree by any means, but rather instructing us to use it only long enough for new roots to establish themselves in newly planted saplings. After the first season or two? Exnay, adios, let Mother Nature flex her considerable muscles unaided. This provides the greatest value to both tree and client.

Jomo

 

[Jomo]

Is guying a transplanted sapling indicative of what is appropriate for cabling a union?

The pertinent question when cabling/bracing must be answered first.

Is there a structural defect present?

If yes? Then cabling/bracing is warranted when installed to last the lifetime of the tree.

No defect? No cabling/bracing.

Jomo

 

[Jomo]

Let's apply some simple logic to just one glaring defect of the Cobra dynamic cabling system, in the real world.

Girdling the branches of certain tree species with fragile bark/cambium, when anywhere near the forces the system's rated to withstand are actually applied, at the connection.

Alnus rhombifolia and Betula pendula are two prime examples. Actually apply a ton or two of pull to any girdling connections in either species and watch what happens!

Does Cobra have a disclaimer bout soft barked tree species being inappropriate for their strangulation support systems?

Jomo

 

[Jomo]

How is your static alignment gun-thingy idea for J lags? Still working on it?

Still putting in all my cables in trees with perfect alignment.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/oBUho2Ez29I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Which ain't easy to do without my Cabling Alignment Tubes.

You'd think I'd market this stuff huh?

I ain't no Gerry or Reg yu know?

I'm a jerk, with lots of custom junk, that I hoard like an ogre.

All my stuff can be copied and used by anyone sick of crooked cables n stuff!

Long as my cables are straight, I'm a happy mate, and worth choosing over my competitors!

Just an old vulture, waitin round for some poor tree to crack n die from exposure or somethin.

Jomo