Second notch on a stem

emr

emr

Cheesehead Treehouser
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Location
Neenah, Wisconsin
Yesterday I was removing a stone dead Lombardi Poplar and didn't want to go too high. This meant that I had to take a pretty big top out..... No rigging, just bomb it out. I put a face cut into the stem in the direction that I thought would place the top in a good location. My partner was dealing with brush on the ground and wasnt really watching where I was aiming it. After my face cut was completed, he looked at it and wanted me to change the direction by about 45 degrees. So I had to decide if I would go higher up on the stem or come down a little bit to place the new notch. Is there a general rule of thumb for something like this?

I ended climbing up a few feet higher but I was nervous that the tree may barber chair between the two face cuts so I made sure to keep my climbing line and lanyard below the first notch. It was slightly awkward but manageable. The top came over and landed where it was supposed to without incident.

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Hmm. . . I'd think going lower would be the ticket. The top going over will put some backward force on the lower stem, like when Gerrys Rockport tree pushed him back several feet, and that would equate to force on the open face you'd already cut. A lower notch would be pulling on the tension wood on the backside of the stem as the top went over, I suspect.
 
I think each situation would be different. I'd say bare minimum you should be at least a trunk diameter above or below the original cut.
Barber chair wouldn't be of concern without a pull line if it wasn't a concern before hand.
 
"Double Stumping" a move soon figured out by rooks w stuck saw(s) ... Falls within accepted practices. When I hit a spike making box for Game Of Logging (after instructor swapped loops) asked his permission to double stump and went up a foot.
 
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  • #7
We have always gone below in the past when something like that happens. That last time my partner did it, the branch did sort of a Barber chair and the branch when where the original (higher up) notch was facing it towards. It's usually not a big deal but the poplar that I was in yesterday was pretty big and I was a little nervous. We had a pull line in it but we were only pulling by hand.... No mechanical advantage on this one. We didn't want to pull so hard that the tree would fail.

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  • #8
Raj said:
Would have cutting an uneven hinge to direct it worked?
Click to expand...
We didn't want to risk it not working. But we have done things like that before. One trainer that I saw along the way said that those tone really work anyway. But we still do it sometimes. I think I've seen it work so I will continue to use that method in certain situations.

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I have had the situation on pine trees where I have redone the face cut for one reason or another...

As soon as the backcut is in line with the hinge and pull was applied, the the trunk parted like a step cut. No direction whatsoever and fell sideways towards the area I was trying to avoid by re doing the face...

Such is life!
 
emr said:
We have always gone below in the past when something like that happens. That last time my partner did it, the branch did sort of a Barber chair and the branch when where the original (higher up) notch was facing it towards. It's usually not a big deal but the poplar that I was in yesterday was pretty big and I was a little nervous. We had a pull line in it but we were only pulling by hand.... No mechanical advantage on this one. We didn't want to pull so hard that the tree would fail.

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Click to expand...
Vertical leader or a branch?
biggun said:
I have had the situation on pine trees where I have redone the face cut for one reason or another...

As soon as the backcut is in line with the hinge and pull was applied, the the trunk parted like a step cut. No direction whatsoever and fell sideways towards the area I was trying to avoid by re doing the face...

Such is life!
Click to expand...
How close were the cuts to each other? And what diameter?
 
Raj said:
Would have cutting an uneven hinge to direct it worked?
Click to expand...

On a dead Poplar most likely not.

EMR,

With out seeing the tree or the situation at hand it is going to be tough to give input. Barber chair seems unlikely unless pulling the top over with a rope. I could see me being concerned with failure at the first notch if the tree was way dead and relatively small diameter and the second notch was a straight up 45 degree top face style notch. It sounds like you didn't die or if you did you got better so it seems like it all worked out. If something feels way wrong it probably is, but it doesn't really seem like you made any mistake from your description.
 
sotc said:
Vertical leader or a branch?

How close were the cuts to each other? And what diameter?
Click to expand...

Willie, the tree was a Scots pine over in Oslo. It was growing out of and granite on a mound and about 2 foot diameter trunk and maybe 40 foot tall max. Short and squat. We had a pull line tied off to a machine as it was limb weighted in the direction opposing the fell.

I gobbed it up and the lads complained it might roll slightly and then slide down and they would have had to do some actual work and pick bits up... I conceded to keep them happy and did another face above the old one. About 18-24 inches above the old one at floor height. As I did the back cut and they pulled it snapped like an step cut and the face of the bottom cut tucked in there and it went in that direction for a bit then gravity took over.

No damage just a bit of back work to get the bits from out of the ditch area further towards the bottom of the granite mound.

If I had felled it with original face cut it would have been ok.

It was a few years ago and I haven't had it happen since so maybe this thick ole head can learn things now and again... ;)
 
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  • #18
He tree that I was working in was straight up and down. It had a little bit of weight going backwards but not much. I guess it's good to hear that there are no "rules" to follow in this situation. It seems that you need to trust you gut and do what seems right.

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biggun said:
Willie, the tree was a Scots pine over in Oslo. It was growing out of and granite on a mound and about 2 foot diameter trunk and maybe 40 foot tall max. Short and squat. We had a pull line tied off to a machine as it was limb weighted in the direction opposing the fell.

I gobbed it up and the lads complained it might roll slightly and then slide down and they would have had to do some actual work and pick bits up... I conceded to keep them happy and did another face above the old one. About 18-24 inches above the old one at floor height. As I did the back cut and they pulled it snapped like an step cut and the face of the bottom cut tucked in there and it went in that direction for a bit then gravity took over.

No damage just a bit of back work to get the bits from out of the ditch area further towards the bottom of the granite mound.

If I had felled it with original face cut it would have been ok.

It was a few years ago and I haven't had it happen since so maybe this thick ole head can learn things now and again... ;)
Click to expand...
Interesting, that's about the hingiest Tree out there too
 
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  • #20
HolmenTree said:
I remember making a 2nd facecut in American elm with no problems but that's the fiber strength of American elm.

Best to just recut the facecut for adjustment. But you can only do that when you make a habit of using a shallow open face cut while felling at ground level. Doing arborist work and no longer logging on piecework I now have more time to make the more efficient open face cut.

Spars and tops different situation, no place to 2nd guess......
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I have been finding myself making deeper notches recently. I like the longer hinge and less time it takes to cut through the back cut. I find it easier to make accurate face cuts when they are deeper and need to adjust less often.

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  • #21
To me deeper is about 1/3 of the diameter. I used to be closer to 1/4 or sometimes less. I guess I'm just getting to where I should be.
 
emr said:
I have been finding myself making deeper notches recently. I like the longer hinge and less time it takes to cut through the back cut. I find it easier to make accurate face cuts when they are deeper and need to adjust less often.

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Click to expand...

There are so many variabls.. its good to be able to adjust the depth of the notch to the specific scenario.. ASk 100 arborists why the 1/3... 80% rule and how many would say becasue that's the way I was taught?... 99 if they were being honest...
 
i think in no face are peeling last outer / fewest rings to support and funneling force to more of a point of higher concentration of forces.
.
Facing some gives not a concentrated point but wider support of same forces;
involves more 'rings' of wood to support
gives more lean, by moving the pivot of hinge back/ while center of gravity of tree remains same
gives more side to side control
gives a thinner hinge as fibers can populate across, don't have to go back as far.
.
As hinge gets wider moving towards center:
thinner hinge, more side to side control, more rings of solid 'welded mass' of tree supporting.
.
This maxes out at center of round; but also center is most likely to be stiffer less flexible fibers
.
Coming back further than center reduces side to side control etc.
but still is 'increasing lean'/leverage because hinge as pivot is moving back
.
1/3 a good for hinge because not into stiffer center model;
BUT also, this puts the backfield of the hinge into widest center...
This, gives most tapered hinge leverage against side lean
>>having tapered hinge backfield fibers at widest/center
>> as farthest leveraged point of control from compressed fibers in hinge (under sideLean side) as pivot.
.
center punch face can eliminate stiffer fiber in center theory;
AND force hinge fibers to populate backfields more, in tapered, center punch this would leverage more side to side control over sidelean
.
so 1/3 a good rule as long as is giving these benefits.
Hard forward lean don't bring face as deep into tree to lessen forward leverage, especially if don't need side to side control.
Shallow or back lean, i'd think about facing deeper into tree to make more lean forward/less lean backward math
>>but realizing losing side to side control so might then not come back as far to add back some of that spice as needed.
.
Not coming back into face as deep as you can, does give room for 2nd guessing facing.
 
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