Prussik vs Climb Line Diameter
- Thread starter lxskllr
- Start date
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So do I, and for that very reason. I climbed on one for years, totally safe in a moving rope system. With a tail-tied system, the hitch is the same size as the climbing line and it is still safe and efficient.
I liked it better than the blakes or the tautline.
SRS is what you will probably want to eventually use however, and for that there are better hitches.
TreeSpyder brought up a good point about the rope you’re using, any idea what type of it is, static or dynamic?
There are dozens of different friction hitches, the Prusik, Blake’s, and Tautline are some that bind up the most, you might want to broaden your search for a better one.
There are dozens of different friction hitches, the Prusik, Blake’s, and Tautline are some that bind up the most, you might want to broaden your search for a better one.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
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- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
YW!
.
May you say name or show pic of rope 'device' or type of line and cord using in these builds? >> mechanical builds
Educated Climber.com Ashley Book of Knots (ABoK) chap_26 pre-Ramble:
"But knotting is merely the application of certain mechanical principles, and a principle itself can hardly become obsolete. As conditions change, new applications are bound to appear. The fact that something is not required today is no reason for believing that it will not be needed tomorrow."
.
Are you trying Blake's with cord??
.
Been tracing for hours on prusik cord diameter ratio to life line diameter and for hours and only find 1 (great)source listing 45-75% (actually i THINK used to quote out 45-80% here) Old CMC standard is 50-80% that ASSUMED tested or gathered data etc.
Great resource:http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php >> project lead by 'Agent Smith' / Mark Gommers that stopped by TB briefly/recently.
>>tried to intro idea of 200# man on a 7000# test line; knot strength is least of worries>> that didn't go over to well..
Much knudeNoggin in here too (Dan Lehman references)
IF ASKED FOR PASSWORD ON ANYTHING ON SITE simply : 'thankyou' w/o quotes should do nicely!
http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/01_Knots.pdf
>>prusiks start on pg.46 their OPINION on subject shows after tests on pg.50
>>In fact quote to 75% also but then show "risk of slippage and potential for catastrophic failure over 72%"
Perhaps we should say 50-70% ?
.
The hardness analysis is kinda my view, so personally think we are assuming the harder laid than lifeline type common cords
>>These maintain high strength in smaller package, but think also serves to make harder biting surface into softer even when prusik/biter is less loaded than host lifeline /bitee
.
There is a LOT of good info at this same site, including other prusik reports, Bowline is a large work.
>>they have picked up on Bowline especially DBY being good in Arborist lines etc., even not friendliest in mountain/rescue more of a fig.8 crowd generally.
.
There are other good notable Arborist references too
Treevolution Report . Ropes and Friction Hitches used in Tree Climbing Operations(Report authored by Paolo Bavaresco).
Son of a Hitch: A Genealogy of Arborists’ Climbing Hitches - Mark Adams (TB)
.
TB pdf's probably has most old Arbo articles from TCI:
The Mark Adams collection:
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/climbing_hitches.pdf
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/0505_geneology.pdf (as on PACI site)
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/CC_Jun07.pdf (DdRT)
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/CC_Aug07.pdf (DdRT part2)
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/0505_slicktricks.pdf
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/0505_moreslicktricks.pdf
.
and Tom Dunlap:http://treebuzz.com/pdf/SingleRope.pdf
i think are most notable there.
lxskllr, Sorry didn't throw this stuff earlier, as it does seem somewhat pertinent for your journey!
Ain't much on Shakespeare, but am kinda well read here; as hope you will be!
Ain't much here that you can capture all, in a single read; many reflections as you l-earn and come back to these same pages over time!
.
May you say name or show pic of rope 'device' or type of line and cord using in these builds? >> mechanical builds
Educated Climber.com Ashley Book of Knots (ABoK) chap_26 pre-Ramble:
"But knotting is merely the application of certain mechanical principles, and a principle itself can hardly become obsolete. As conditions change, new applications are bound to appear. The fact that something is not required today is no reason for believing that it will not be needed tomorrow."
.
Are you trying Blake's with cord??
.
Been tracing for hours on prusik cord diameter ratio to life line diameter and for hours and only find 1 (great)source listing 45-75% (actually i THINK used to quote out 45-80% here) Old CMC standard is 50-80% that ASSUMED tested or gathered data etc.
Great resource:http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php >> project lead by 'Agent Smith' / Mark Gommers that stopped by TB briefly/recently.
>>tried to intro idea of 200# man on a 7000# test line; knot strength is least of worries>> that didn't go over to well..
Much knudeNoggin in here too (Dan Lehman references)
IF ASKED FOR PASSWORD ON ANYTHING ON SITE simply : 'thankyou' w/o quotes should do nicely!
http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/01_Knots.pdf
>>prusiks start on pg.46 their OPINION on subject shows after tests on pg.50
>>In fact quote to 75% also but then show "risk of slippage and potential for catastrophic failure over 72%"
Perhaps we should say 50-70% ?
.
The hardness analysis is kinda my view, so personally think we are assuming the harder laid than lifeline type common cords
>>These maintain high strength in smaller package, but think also serves to make harder biting surface into softer even when prusik/biter is less loaded than host lifeline /bitee
.
There is a LOT of good info at this same site, including other prusik reports, Bowline is a large work.
>>they have picked up on Bowline especially DBY being good in Arborist lines etc., even not friendliest in mountain/rescue more of a fig.8 crowd generally.
.
There are other good notable Arborist references too
Treevolution Report . Ropes and Friction Hitches used in Tree Climbing Operations(Report authored by Paolo Bavaresco).
Son of a Hitch: A Genealogy of Arborists’ Climbing Hitches - Mark Adams (TB)
.
TB pdf's probably has most old Arbo articles from TCI:
The Mark Adams collection:
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/climbing_hitches.pdf
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/0505_geneology.pdf (as on PACI site)
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/CC_Jun07.pdf (DdRT)
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/CC_Aug07.pdf (DdRT part2)
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/0505_slicktricks.pdf
http://treebuzz.com/pdf/0505_moreslicktricks.pdf
.
and Tom Dunlap:http://treebuzz.com/pdf/SingleRope.pdf
i think are most notable there.
lxskllr, Sorry didn't throw this stuff earlier, as it does seem somewhat pertinent for your journey!
Ain't much on Shakespeare, but am kinda well read here; as hope you will be!
Ain't much here that you can capture all, in a single read; many reflections as you l-earn and come back to these same pages over time!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #30
All my lines are static. The one I'm currently using is NewEngland KMIII(all my climb line came through these guys as a bag of ends)...
https://www.cmcpro.com/equipment/476/
I also have StaticPro
https://www.cmcpro.com/equipment/static-pro-lifeline/
and Lifeline
https://www.cmcpro.com/equipment/cmc-lifeline/
My prussik is non-heat resistant Sterling 8mm cord(will be replaced with some 8mm Beeline I got last week). It's bulk cord with no eyes spliced, and my traditional prussik is tied with double fisherman knots.
I only tried the blakes with cord on my first failed attempt around the doubled line. With the moving rope system, I've only used the traditional prussik aside from the previously mentioned quick try of the blakes using my tail.
Thanks for the links Spyder!
https://www.cmcpro.com/equipment/476/
I also have StaticPro
https://www.cmcpro.com/equipment/static-pro-lifeline/
and Lifeline
https://www.cmcpro.com/equipment/cmc-lifeline/
My prussik is non-heat resistant Sterling 8mm cord(will be replaced with some 8mm Beeline I got last week). It's bulk cord with no eyes spliced, and my traditional prussik is tied with double fisherman knots.
I only tried the blakes with cord on my first failed attempt around the doubled line. With the moving rope system, I've only used the traditional prussik aside from the previously mentioned quick try of the blakes using my tail.
Thanks for the links Spyder!
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
i see tight, harder lines trying to bite with cord of 1/2 tension legs cumulatively both pulls equal gripped line.
i see force applied to Prusik as unit split into 2x half-loaded equal/opposites to grip full-loaded line together (after loading reduced further by frictions)
>>Furthermore, i don't think any here would want to work Blake's back to self on a 'Stable Braid' type line
>>Would adjust materials to the model presented, and proven friendly in this.
.
For me, this prev.posted oldie is another TOP classical work on rope forces:
Note: how on ropeBrake even the 'twist' from turns to load is counted as part of 3,5,7 half circles/ radian pi's; totally adhering to degrees of contact model even then.
Also:chart of progression of friction from 3,5,7 turns kinda imagined backwards to 1 turn /1 radian pi /180 degrees as more of a frictionalized slip and full circle/360degrees /2 radian pi or more getting into grip territory!(i think this explains A LOT of knots where adding a turn is a game changer.
.
Chart applys here, won't change coefficient(assume nylon on steel same nylon on nylon) just take each half of Prusik pulled at half load as each input into a 50x reduction calc. PER DEGREES OF CONTACT, not surface area
>>that 50x has to show elsewhere (less friction coefficient ) for some kinda raw grip force feeding into Prusik.
BUT ALSO, need the function of the Half-Hitch converter (ala Timber to Killik) AND Double Bearing (or better) that Prusik mechanic provides; for the VERY errant, NON-right angle pull on life line as a vertical column rather than properly at right angle as hanging down from horizontal beam.
Prusik is ingenious combination of these mechanics to suit the needs presented.
i see force applied to Prusik as unit split into 2x half-loaded equal/opposites to grip full-loaded line together (after loading reduced further by frictions)
>>Furthermore, i don't think any here would want to work Blake's back to self on a 'Stable Braid' type line
>>Would adjust materials to the model presented, and proven friendly in this.
.
For me, this prev.posted oldie is another TOP classical work on rope forces:
Note: how on ropeBrake even the 'twist' from turns to load is counted as part of 3,5,7 half circles/ radian pi's; totally adhering to degrees of contact model even then.
Also:chart of progression of friction from 3,5,7 turns kinda imagined backwards to 1 turn /1 radian pi /180 degrees as more of a frictionalized slip and full circle/360degrees /2 radian pi or more getting into grip territory!(i think this explains A LOT of knots where adding a turn is a game changer.
.
Chart applys here, won't change coefficient(assume nylon on steel same nylon on nylon) just take each half of Prusik pulled at half load as each input into a 50x reduction calc. PER DEGREES OF CONTACT, not surface area
>>that 50x has to show elsewhere (less friction coefficient ) for some kinda raw grip force feeding into Prusik.
BUT ALSO, need the function of the Half-Hitch converter (ala Timber to Killik) AND Double Bearing (or better) that Prusik mechanic provides; for the VERY errant, NON-right angle pull on life line as a vertical column rather than properly at right angle as hanging down from horizontal beam.
Prusik is ingenious combination of these mechanics to suit the needs presented.
pantheraba
More biners!!!
That 76 page analysis of the bowline is incredible. So many things there I had never heard of:
collars, nipping loops, PET..post eye tying....Eskimo bowline...good share.
collars, nipping loops, PET..post eye tying....Eskimo bowline...good share.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #33
Yea, I especially liked that bowline paper. The bowline's a favorite of mine, but I never trusted the security. The Scotts Locked Bowline looks like it improves on the standard, and is easy to tie. It isn't substantially different from the standard.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
Can say same there as here;
materials you are working in.
.
DBY and Blake's will lend self very well to common olds-cool arbo lines ArboPlex, True Blue, Tree Pro Red, Blue Streak, NE HyVee, even NE 3strand Safety Blue etc.
>>1/2" 3strand NE for Blakes on braided 1/2" isn't a bad ride (IMHO).
>>but perhaps not so well, in stiffer, harder line that neither seats well relaxed nor wants to keep in shape>>fighting you the whole way
Just as both of these knots will work very well, to very cheaply illustrate in para-cord >>but not monofilament.
>>can't make as many material irrelevant claims in flexible(vs. rigid) devices cuz the seating, elasticity etc. all are factors, that can vary.
.
Nipping Loop is the 2 end pull Half Hitch(like Killick HH on log before Timber) that locks Bowline; but split hairs and because forceFlow terminates and doesn't pass-thru i think the Nipping Loop is defined as NOT in a Sheet Bend by their view.
Capstan Effect around 'SPart' (Standing Part) another new descriptor(s)
Most i think are knudeKnoggin-isms, but assume some must be of Agent Smith.
All in all a tremendous work continuing for years now, and a good draw and intro to other goodies.
.
Mountain/Rescue been saying nay to Bowline and more of a fig.8 crowd.
>>large step for them to take so seriously AND they note on site several times about friendliness and trust-ability found in Arbo climb lines with this old friend.
NOTE: the stiff (tho colorful) rope pictured in, IS too stiff for what i'd like to tie Bowline in
>>for works against the turns, doesn't as easily lend itself as our climbing lines etc.
To me like using the wrong tempered metal etc.; material doesn't lend itself easily to purpose.
Bowline is not equally good in all mediums/materials used to carry the strategy; just cuz it is rope.
>>should have the proper 'hand'/handling..
materials you are working in.
.
DBY and Blake's will lend self very well to common olds-cool arbo lines ArboPlex, True Blue, Tree Pro Red, Blue Streak, NE HyVee, even NE 3strand Safety Blue etc.
>>1/2" 3strand NE for Blakes on braided 1/2" isn't a bad ride (IMHO).
>>but perhaps not so well, in stiffer, harder line that neither seats well relaxed nor wants to keep in shape>>fighting you the whole way
Just as both of these knots will work very well, to very cheaply illustrate in para-cord >>but not monofilament.
>>can't make as many material irrelevant claims in flexible(vs. rigid) devices cuz the seating, elasticity etc. all are factors, that can vary.
.
Nipping Loop is the 2 end pull Half Hitch(like Killick HH on log before Timber) that locks Bowline; but split hairs and because forceFlow terminates and doesn't pass-thru i think the Nipping Loop is defined as NOT in a Sheet Bend by their view.
Capstan Effect around 'SPart' (Standing Part) another new descriptor(s)
Most i think are knudeKnoggin-isms, but assume some must be of Agent Smith.
All in all a tremendous work continuing for years now, and a good draw and intro to other goodies.
.
Mountain/Rescue been saying nay to Bowline and more of a fig.8 crowd.
>>large step for them to take so seriously AND they note on site several times about friendliness and trust-ability found in Arbo climb lines with this old friend.
NOTE: the stiff (tho colorful) rope pictured in, IS too stiff for what i'd like to tie Bowline in
>>for works against the turns, doesn't as easily lend itself as our climbing lines etc.
To me like using the wrong tempered metal etc.; material doesn't lend itself easily to purpose.
Bowline is not equally good in all mediums/materials used to carry the strategy; just cuz it is rope.
>>should have the proper 'hand'/handling..
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #36
Cool, I'll give it a try. It isn't enough to climb on, but I have enough to make a complete system.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
Of course please try knots (DBY, Blake's, stoppers each end) and how they react etc. sitting on couch for hours first.
Know your knots and materials before placing life in their hands.
Steep, but workable hill is also safer practice than free fall height .
>>should know knots REAL well, tend to look different in tree when have to put life on and sphincter suddenly awakens with NO vote..
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The stiffness felt fighting the other ropes to same knots in my imagery don't just make not seat as well for your purposes
>>but would also say they weakened rope efficiency more, for they have tensions , not relaxed when start, just like metal or even own arm wouldn't hold as well starting from 'twerked' position.
thus 'twerked' chain if didn't untwist would hold less etc.
>>i look at load as multiplier of the present state. Also look at rope unloaded as in form-able/malleable state, but forges into tension only rod like on loading, and then subject to those rules
.
There is a SuiSlide to steer around as errant form of Blake's whose mechanix pull tail towards open, not closed!
>>per coils' rotations on tail.
Know your knots and materials before placing life in their hands.
Steep, but workable hill is also safer practice than free fall height .
>>should know knots REAL well, tend to look different in tree when have to put life on and sphincter suddenly awakens with NO vote..
.
The stiffness felt fighting the other ropes to same knots in my imagery don't just make not seat as well for your purposes
>>but would also say they weakened rope efficiency more, for they have tensions , not relaxed when start, just like metal or even own arm wouldn't hold as well starting from 'twerked' position.
thus 'twerked' chain if didn't untwist would hold less etc.
>>i look at load as multiplier of the present state. Also look at rope unloaded as in form-able/malleable state, but forges into tension only rod like on loading, and then subject to those rules
.
There is a SuiSlide to steer around as errant form of Blake's whose mechanix pull tail towards open, not closed!
>>per coils' rotations on tail.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #38
Re stiffer rope... That new beeline is pretty stout, especially compared to the Sterling I was using. I don't quite trust it at this time, but I still need to get it around some rope to see how it feels.
Going a bit off topic... What do you think of the zeppelin bend for joining rope for rigging purposes? Specifically, I'm thinking of using it for extending the maasdam length when necessary. Seems like it ticks all the boxes for strength and lack of jamming. I was gonna attempt an eye splice in the rope this past weekend(never did it before), and when I got to looking at it, it seemed like I should add a thimble(which I don't have) to maintain strength. After debating on it, I said to hell with it, and I'll just join the ropes for the time being, and pick up a thimble when I need to order something, or see one locally.
Going a bit off topic... What do you think of the zeppelin bend for joining rope for rigging purposes? Specifically, I'm thinking of using it for extending the maasdam length when necessary. Seems like it ticks all the boxes for strength and lack of jamming. I was gonna attempt an eye splice in the rope this past weekend(never did it before), and when I got to looking at it, it seemed like I should add a thimble(which I don't have) to maintain strength. After debating on it, I said to hell with it, and I'll just join the ropes for the time being, and pick up a thimble when I need to order something, or see one locally.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
69/Zeppelin/Rosendahl excellent choice for nonJamming/re-usable Bend.
>>Prefer triple-fisherman's for welding into a Prusic , never to be untied again security and profile.
>>Olds-cool would go with DOUBLE SheetBend , if mix materials with any smaller OR denser cord being the locking hitch side rather than 'mounted bight' that could be 'fluffier' , fatter/looser when equivalently loaded.
.
In flat-rope webbing2webbing nonJamming like the What Knot as doesn't wander to unlocked in the flat device as easy as round.
>>Actually wonderful lacing in many nonRound or mix of chain/chain, chain/rope, web/rope, web/chain of relative sizes.
>>Simply 2 of Basic Hitch forms set to each other.
Is trusted in round if seize ends back up to Standings, for going thru a ship port from dock etc.
.
Made this about walking up rope forces, in discussion on how much easier chest harness makes it by keeping Center of Gravity (CoG) as old more inline with lift of leg.
.
personal theory:
Tension side force value pulls the equal opposites more inline
>>but Compression side force value pushes equal opposites more out of line.
By this measure are fighting the inefficiency, that system tries to make worser because is compression input to allowed sideforce so not only inefficient upward, but also fighting for CoG not to get further out of line, and if it does fight even more at less efficiency as chain of events. Chest harness seeks to take inefficiency from lift and negate sidewards fight fatigue as well.
.
This miss-alignment tax is more from sides force added, than lift efficiency lost!
.
As with any other system / chain of devices,
system seeks to perform force column work against load(cosine);
while trying to also sustain against side forces(sine).
>>Prefer triple-fisherman's for welding into a Prusic , never to be untied again security and profile.
>>Olds-cool would go with DOUBLE SheetBend , if mix materials with any smaller OR denser cord being the locking hitch side rather than 'mounted bight' that could be 'fluffier' , fatter/looser when equivalently loaded.
.
In flat-rope webbing2webbing nonJamming like the What Knot as doesn't wander to unlocked in the flat device as easy as round.
>>Actually wonderful lacing in many nonRound or mix of chain/chain, chain/rope, web/rope, web/chain of relative sizes.
>>Simply 2 of Basic Hitch forms set to each other.
Is trusted in round if seize ends back up to Standings, for going thru a ship port from dock etc.
.
Made this about walking up rope forces, in discussion on how much easier chest harness makes it by keeping Center of Gravity (CoG) as old more inline with lift of leg.
.
personal theory:
Tension side force value pulls the equal opposites more inline
>>but Compression side force value pushes equal opposites more out of line.
By this measure are fighting the inefficiency, that system tries to make worser because is compression input to allowed sideforce so not only inefficient upward, but also fighting for CoG not to get further out of line, and if it does fight even more at less efficiency as chain of events. Chest harness seeks to take inefficiency from lift and negate sidewards fight fatigue as well.
.
This miss-alignment tax is more from sides force added, than lift efficiency lost!
.
As with any other system / chain of devices,
system seeks to perform force column work against load(cosine);
while trying to also sustain against side forces(sine).
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Welcome to the TreeHouse, brother! 
Welcome to the TreeHouse, brother!
Thank you! And thanks for hosting this great site. I look forward to learning from all the knowledgeable people here.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Make yourself at home! What is your first name? Mine's Butch!
Raj
TreeHouser
Welcome Woodwork!
Hi, Butch, I'm Jeff, from Virginia. Thanks again to you and Peter, too! Just a hobbyist/weekend warrior but hope to learn enough to maybe do more eventually.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Glad to have you here, Jeff!
ch74
TreeHouser
My new stiff tether i get to try tomorrow with my newish climb line. Only got a few climbs on it in a decent live oak ill send pics
BeerGeek
Tree Numbnutz
I've had to use the Zeppelin a few times to bail me out on the Maasdam due to misjudged/misplaced rigging lines coming up short. One of the greatest knots in my arsenal, and the back story about Rosendahl insisting it be used to moor airships always cracks a smile. If not proficient at tying, watch Patrick's video on tying it "69" style at https://www.educatedclimber.com or directly on his YouTube channel (Educated Climber).
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #49
I didn't use it for a long while after discovering it cause I couldn't make sense of tying it. I'd look at the diagram, and think "WTF?!", and put it aside. I eventually ran into the "69" diagram, and it all clicked. Very easy to tie, and hard to tie wrong. I like easy knots, especially when there's consequences to tying wrong. I want to be able to just tie it, and not stand there thinking "hmm...".
SeanKroll
Treehouser
I saw a "b" and "q", 69 is a new way to look at it.
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