one handed saw use

[DMc]

One-Handing a saw is a bonafide technique in the Arborist Trade. Damn me for saying it. Like most techniques, when used, applied or executed without thorough understanding, can seriously injure or kill ......

I couldn't agree more! I actually find it ludicrous that this technique has been singled out and damned. Can anyone even count the number of things that will maim or kill us in this line of work?

To not teach or discuss one-handed chainsaw use because "they might get hurt if they use it" is not looking at the entire picture clearly.

 

[gf beranek]

Thanks for the back-up on that, Dave!

 

[Grendel]

Great discussion.

 

[August Hunicke]

One-Handing a saw is a bonafide technique in the Arborist Trade. Damn me for saying it. Like most techniques, when used, applied or executed without thorough understanding, can seriously injure or kill us.

Safety institutions should back off preaching the sins about one-handing a saw, and come to terms and recognize that it is a true technique that should be taught with the same emphasis on safety as all other issues in this trade.

Now, how about that 2 inch stump-shot rule? I can write pages about how much it is mis-understood... in the matters of safety! Safety institutions really should start listing to more experience people in this field. If they truly want to promote / enforce safety that is.

That's my 2 cents. Thanks for bringing it up, Reg. Now I feel better.

Can I get an amen!

 

[MasterBlaster]

 

[August Hunicke]

👍🏽

 

[RegC]

One handing is safer for cutting in many different rigging scenarios IMO. Love getting my head and torso farther from the action as it's tripped. Always using two hands on the saw makes about as much sense to me as always using one hand on the saw.

Rigging, storm damage, head leaner....where ever fireworks are expected. Distance is good, sometimes 2 ft might be as good as a mile. Only a fool would say, 'well I'll risk having my head taken off just to have 2 hands on the saw. Then there are other times that you might use one hand, just because you can, not because it's safer. And it's so normal that you're not even concious of it....its just doing your job, right ? And then as as been mentioned already here, and by myself in the vids that got deleted, there are many other tasks that could equally get you killed but that nobody seems to be shining a torch at etc.

But here's an awkward bit that you can't ignore, and that's the legal standpoint, your Duty of Care. Let's say to the other guys you employ, your apprentices, second climbers, whatever. For example, in BC, let's say Darrell who works for a me a few days a week, trys to copy what he sees me doing with the one handed stuff and cuts himself in the process. Depending on the severity of his injuries, I could probably expect to lose my business licence, huge fines and imprisonment even. Because that's the law....unlike many of the other tasks which carry inherent risk but are deemed acceptable. Not to mention having the accident on my concience, knowing that by setting the example, I influenced him to make that cut. Be interested to hear other thoughts on that ? Maybe health and safety law is different in your state or country. Put yourself in the supervisory role now, not the cutter. Let's hear

 

[stig]

Teaching apprentices like I do, I put myself in that role every day, Reg.

That means I'm more careful about tying in twice and stuff like that than I'd be otherwise, because I have to be setting an example.
If for some reasom I decide not to tie in twice, I'll usually explain why. Sena is GREAT for that.

Whenever we have large scale blowdown in the woods, I'll usually spend a day or two moniroring the apprentice very closely, untill I can see that are safe ( Or as safe as one can be in that kind of shit) on their own.

As for getting in trouble because an apprentice follows my example and gets hurt, I can't see that happening here.
What we do is dangerous, and here that fact is recognized.

 

[High Scale]

In the UK if an accident happens they go out of their way to find somebody to blame.

 

[RegC]

As for getting in trouble because an apprentice follows my example and gets hurt, I can't see that happening here.
What we do is dangerous, and here that fact is recognized.

Thanks for answering Stig. More specifically, I'm referring to a technique or decision that would be viewed as malpractice by your specific safety Authority.... ie here in BC one handling is like not wearing chainsaw pants, or a hard hat even. If a worker got cut on the leg without chainsaw pants, you couldn't argue in court that he wasn't producing enough because he was too hot, so you let him work without. It just wouldn't stand up. Same as one handling....efficiency or production wouldnt work as an argument. So, company owners, crew leaders....where do you stand ?

 

[DMc]

....Same as one handling....efficiency or production wouldnt work as an argument. So, company owners, crew leaders....where do you stand ?

I gotta ask, is that a serious question? When speaking about what is legally required, there is no question. They are in writing and compliance or lack is easily verified. That, however, is not proof that the outlawed activity deserves to be. I would submit some of the well thought out arguments that your video presented, but it's not there.

 

[Levi]

Doesn't the ANSI standard say that it's not acceptable unless it's deemed by the cutter to be more safe than 2 handing? That'd be my argument in court.

 

[RegC]

I gotta ask, is that a serious question? When speaking about what is legally required, there is no question. They are in writing and compliance or lack is easily verified. That, however, is not proof that the outlawed activity deserves to be. I would submit some of the well thought out arguments that your video presented, but it's not there.

Do think I'm joking Dave ? Of course it's serious, like court is a serious place. All good good and we'll us commending each others 'for' views on the forum, but not so helpful in the aftermath of an accident. So, are the legal obligations any kind of deterent in regards to allowing your employees to one handle ? I'm not arguing with anyone here....I'm simply asking the questions of others that I'm putting to myself.

 

[squisher]

Just have your regular safety meets and put your initials down on it. If someone gets hurt one handing it's going to be a shit show. Just have some documentation that you've discussed it's not an acceptable practice.

It is all fine and dandy for all of us to talk about it being a legitimate technique. Because it is. But if you want to talk liability and legality you better have documentation that it is not accepted and that that has been discussed. Because if your new guy cuts himself and goes on to tell compo that he was told one handing is fine. You will hang for it.

It's bs, like so many things in life. You can work within the system or beat your head against the wall for a lifetime and hope to effect some change in the end.

Do as I say, not as I do.

 

[Levi]

As far as I know, in the US at least, there is no law or regulation saying that you can not one hand a saw.

 

[RegC]

Doesn't the ANSI standard say that it's not acceptable unless it's deemed by the cutter to be more safe than 2 handing? That'd be my argument in court.

Great if it's true, but do you know this for sure ?

 

[Levi]

I am 99% sure on that. I'll do some research.

 

[DMc]

Do think I'm joking Dave ?....

No, not a joke but it did sound like a rhetorical question. If you do not abide the law and something goes wrong because of it, you could reasonably expect to be held liable.

That has very little to do with whether or not one handing a chainsaw is an acceptable practice amongst professionals. Merely that it has been deemed illegal in some areas and that has no room for discussion.

 

[stig]

That is where lying comes in handy!

 

[Levi]

Yep, gots to know when to lie.

Here it is Reg, from the z133
6.3.6 When operating a chain saw, the arborist or other worker shall hold the saw firmly with
both hands, keeping the thumb and fingers wrapped around the handle. A chain saw shall
be operated with the left hand and thumb gripped firmly around the forward handle and
the right hand and thumb gripped firmly around the rear handle, unless it is not
practicable and the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by operating the
chain saw that way in that particular situation.

Seems open to a lot of interpretation, a greater hazard is posed by 2 handing in many situations as stated earlier in the thread.

 

[Jomo]

Believe it or not, the dudes wrightin ANSI regs have been around the block.

Enough so to agree there are exceptions to there rules in certain situations that're life n death for the climber.

An example being a hollow old skeleton of a big oak whose integrity a matter of happenstance.

Under these conditions it becomes acceptable for the climber to stay tied into the crane even while making very moderate picks.

In other words the climber's chances of livin out the day are much better if he breaks the rules, under certain conditions.

Jomoco

 

[RegC]

No, not a joke but it did sound like a rhetorical question. If you do not abide the law and something goes wrong because of it, you could reasonably expect to be held liable.

That has very little to do with whether or not one handing a chainsaw is an acceptable practice amongst professionals. Merely that it has been deemed illegal in some areas and that has no room for discussion.

Not rhetorical at all Dave. It's just a significant point that people don't seem to acknowledge when the issue is being discussed. If I'm going to discuss it on Marks article, then id like to know how people feel about the whole picture, not just parts.

 

[DMc]

The reason that you will not hear opinions on legality vs function discussed is that the former leaves little to discuss. If you have laws in your area that prohibit you or your employees from using it, there is not much that can be said. It is the number one argument against its use and it is a good one.

I was taught how and when to one hand as basic information. It was a different time with different laws. I also taught many climbers the trade which included one handing. Every single one of those climbers have now retired with their left hands intact as is mine and I'm still doing it.

 

[RegC]

I still have my fingers and facilities in tact also Dave. As a sub contractor for many years, I wouldn't even entertain such a discussion. But now I find myself perhaps directly accountable for the well being of others, it's not so clear. With the exception of where one handling is arguably safer.... production v liability seems to be the comprimise.

 

[DMc]

Accountability on an emotional level is one thing and as an employer is quite different. If I still had employees, they would follow the regulations to legal definitions. That means if the regulations had latitude they would be allowed to use it. Doing it any other way just doesn't make sense.

Putting restrictions on what I would teach simply because they might get hurt would not enter my mind. If anyone I knew or taught did get hurt I would, indeed, feel awful. But I understand that is the way of life. I don't consider one handing a saw high on the list of dangerous things that we do, taken as a whole.

If you are bound by the law, there is no discussion, no compromise. It is what it is. Just recognise emotional baggage for what it is.