pete mctree
Treehouser
I have gravitated towards using a clove hitch( backed up with a couple of half hitches)- very kind bend radius & easy to tie. For extra security I sometimes put a 3rd wrap on it.
Negative Rigging
- Thread starter RegC
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theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
Quite a dead-drop purposefully into loose line;
by someone willing to stand aloft next to all that coming apart!
.
i'm w/Reg on the space between backcut and block, no face.
i'd always take at lease Round Turn around rope part to block/ not just simple Turn.
>>Figure some kind of Backhand Turn base, going for Cow, Timber ok, like tail to finish at least opposite side of spar from block;
>>If make it all the way to Cow, i don't worry about stuffing that leg(top) thru the extra turns.
.
Whatever hitch i used, would precede with Half Hitch/Marl, yes
>>and it would be taking primary hit, so not sure Clove/Bowline etc. choice after is as relevant/all pulled at wrong angle.
>>Any inline pulls on a host/load should precede w/Half Hitch or Marl, unless hitch built like Chinese finger puzzle
>>rope is compromised at inline angles of pull on what it grabs, is best at right angle of pull on host/load.
.
Because so short, and then wide in ratio, and were the stobs are etc.
i'd probably put final hitch bedded into large stob closer to high end of load,
and cut my own mini notches for Half Hitch to bed into and lock on load.
.
Soft hand off:
Would at least ramp to rope/block catch, possibly holding down to slide slowww,
But, most likely hinge over wide face, slow;
by ground control muscling over into face on hinge
it isn't so big as to put massive leverage on spar when turning.
The line would come over the top (thru V notch at front and rear)
and then down the back side of load/tie off
for more of a rotational movement, all the way thru at all angles as ground control pulls over into face.
>>if just pull from front, not at top leveraged position to flex hinge,
>>also over the top is more consistent forcing of hinge i think
For smaller of same, i might help groundies pull with a semi-truck tire spoon as lever where wedgie usually goes;
semi-truck tire spoon: wonderful thin tongue on rod, all tough temper
.
Minimal drop, at slow speed,
Hand off into tightened line, to then let run.
.
i don't like having the center of gravity of the load between the Half Hitch and the final hitch;
>>but on stuff like this and shorter that is how i go.
.
DWT impact warning:
1000# on a 10k gets more elasticity/dampening; than
500# on a 10k line.
>>for DWT would calculate 2x500# hit,
>>greater than 1000# hit on 10k line.
So, statically, DWT(1.5xLoad) definitively is less loaded than standard hang from 1 block(2xLoad)
>>BUT as dynamics/impact enter in; numbers can shift quick!
by someone willing to stand aloft next to all that coming apart!
.
i'm w/Reg on the space between backcut and block, no face.
i'd always take at lease Round Turn around rope part to block/ not just simple Turn.
>>Figure some kind of Backhand Turn base, going for Cow, Timber ok, like tail to finish at least opposite side of spar from block;
>>If make it all the way to Cow, i don't worry about stuffing that leg(top) thru the extra turns.
.
Whatever hitch i used, would precede with Half Hitch/Marl, yes
>>and it would be taking primary hit, so not sure Clove/Bowline etc. choice after is as relevant/all pulled at wrong angle.
>>Any inline pulls on a host/load should precede w/Half Hitch or Marl, unless hitch built like Chinese finger puzzle
>>rope is compromised at inline angles of pull on what it grabs, is best at right angle of pull on host/load.
.
Because so short, and then wide in ratio, and were the stobs are etc.
i'd probably put final hitch bedded into large stob closer to high end of load,
and cut my own mini notches for Half Hitch to bed into and lock on load.
.
Soft hand off:
Would at least ramp to rope/block catch, possibly holding down to slide slowww,
But, most likely hinge over wide face, slow;
by ground control muscling over into face on hinge
it isn't so big as to put massive leverage on spar when turning.
The line would come over the top (thru V notch at front and rear)
and then down the back side of load/tie off
for more of a rotational movement, all the way thru at all angles as ground control pulls over into face.
>>if just pull from front, not at top leveraged position to flex hinge,
>>also over the top is more consistent forcing of hinge i think
For smaller of same, i might help groundies pull with a semi-truck tire spoon as lever where wedgie usually goes;
semi-truck tire spoon: wonderful thin tongue on rod, all tough temper
.
Minimal drop, at slow speed,
Hand off into tightened line, to then let run.
.
i don't like having the center of gravity of the load between the Half Hitch and the final hitch;
>>but on stuff like this and shorter that is how i go.
.
DWT impact warning:
1000# on a 10k gets more elasticity/dampening; than
500# on a 10k line.
>>for DWT would calculate 2x500# hit,
>>greater than 1000# hit on 10k line.
So, statically, DWT(1.5xLoad) definitively is less loaded than standard hang from 1 block(2xLoad)
>>BUT as dynamics/impact enter in; numbers can shift quick!
chris_girard
Treehouser
Totally agree.
Grendel
TreeHouser
It almost looks like that was staged or intentional. I mean the arb is pretty relaxed about the whole thing. . . 
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
pantheraba
More biners!!!
Yep, Bermy...that caught my attention, too.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
It almost looks like that was staged or intentional. I mean the arb is pretty relaxed about the whole thing. . .
Looked a little to relaxed imo for what happened there, whether it was intentional for some reason or not. That block rebounding like a bullet, damn.
Raj
TreeHouser
There is a brief second where you see a couple of guys in hivis/hard hats that seem to be observing from the ground.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I'm betting there were no targets - just turf damage.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Welcome to the TreeHouse!
I have no idea why you can't see it.
I have no idea why you can't see it.
Bodean
Cali dreamer
Mofish75 I have a Samsung 5 on Tapatalk and I can't see 90% of the videos posted here...my laptop shows up fine.
Raj
TreeHouser
Welcome!
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
double bowline is an easy upgrade and much stronger knot. I use it automatically on everything over 100 lbs..
Mick!
TreeHouser
Out of curiosity, how is a double bowline "stronger" than a half hitch/bowline?
Yes, especially since all the testing I have seen the half hitch/bowline combo fails at the half hitch.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
You missing a zero mate?
Mick!
TreeHouser
Ok, thanks, but when you say stronger, all rope will snap under enough pressure so why won't it snap as readily with a double bowline?
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
A Double Bowline shows testing out 5-8% stronger, and much more secure in tests.
.
The theory is that the same primary deformation of the most loaded Standing Part is in either form (single/double Bowline);
just Double Bowline gives a longer route over that deformity of 2 rings rather than 1; for less impact of change by the most loaded Standing Part.
.
Kinda like hitting railroad tracks square perpendicular(always have wheels straight per vehicle), or angled across for longer path over same deformity, less impact of change.
.
Some say results and change too insignificant, and then just 'parroted' around;
some say Doubled Bowline might be just dressed better by maker taking it that far etc.
.
Muscle memory in my fingers knows the DBY slipknot/inversion dance better than rest, so that is what comes out!
i think any of these things that you pay real attention to, preen, dress etc. squeak a few percent more out of by
making line lay more relaxed/less torqued and proper alignment, for 'cleaner running', less 'burrs'/faults etc.
.
The theory is that the same primary deformation of the most loaded Standing Part is in either form (single/double Bowline);
just Double Bowline gives a longer route over that deformity of 2 rings rather than 1; for less impact of change by the most loaded Standing Part.
.
Kinda like hitting railroad tracks square perpendicular(always have wheels straight per vehicle), or angled across for longer path over same deformity, less impact of change.
.
Some say results and change too insignificant, and then just 'parroted' around;
some say Doubled Bowline might be just dressed better by maker taking it that far etc.
.
Muscle memory in my fingers knows the DBY slipknot/inversion dance better than rest, so that is what comes out!
i think any of these things that you pay real attention to, preen, dress etc. squeak a few percent more out of by
making line lay more relaxed/less torqued and proper alignment, for 'cleaner running', less 'burrs'/faults etc.
Mick!
TreeHouser
Thanks, good explanation, I agree that any small percentage can be alleviated by a bit of thoughtful dressing.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
Where did you get that figure 5-8% ?????
If we say a bowline reduces a line strength by 40% and making a 10,000 line break at 6,000 lbs
and a double bowline only reduces line strength by 32%, you could say the difference is 8%, but that would be decieving
10,000 lb line would break at 6,800 lbs making it 800 lbs stronger that the line with a regular blowine, that 800 lbs is , which is over 13% of 6000 lbs...
And my gut tells me the difference is MUCH greater in dynamic scenarios... most test of knot strength is done with a straight pull to failure..
Bottom line.. replace the bowline with the double bowline on anything heavy
ITS HUGE
If we say a bowline reduces a line strength by 40% and making a 10,000 line break at 6,000 lbs
and a double bowline only reduces line strength by 32%, you could say the difference is 8%, but that would be decieving
10,000 lb line would break at 6,800 lbs making it 800 lbs stronger that the line with a regular blowine, that 800 lbs is , which is over 13% of 6000 lbs...
And my gut tells me the difference is MUCH greater in dynamic scenarios... most test of knot strength is done with a straight pull to failure..
Bottom line.. replace the bowline with the double bowline on anything heavy
ITS HUGE
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
i'm sorry i've been watching this specific issue intensely for 20yrs. trying to de-code rope mechanix in general;
and that is what the guys i think are most knowledge-able seem to say after a lot of chasing it with all i got ;
as DBY was my own choice in materials we use.
.
Perhaps i was slack and don't take things far enough,
but that is where my journey ended(fer now)!
.
i'd replace to DBY as you say as always doing simple best, is more secure
>>just have found tweak to retaining more tensile strength not as high a return as would hope!
****************************************************
Rest of this is filled start to finish with PERSONAL THEORIES/ NO BACKERS :
Pushing usable tensile strength very far over 70-80%
on lacing that just deforms, not grips Standing Part is pretty tough i think.
.
Please note that the longer ride over same deformity for Double vs Single Bowline is not real angle across railroad track imagery
>>but rather more like going over 2 sets of RR tracks
>>so major 'savings' would be due to the up/down being farther apart as less impacting change-back,
>>NOT more gradual climb over initial deformity like hitting RR angled for less impact of change initially..
.
Better architectures w/o deforming fully loaded Standing Part so harshly:
Round Turn around Standing Part (straight Standing Part w/only Turn on host) based
>>seems to manage deformity, hug all around just not deform Standing Part, test out better
.
OR friction hitch back to self away from host (sharp angle less loading)
>>like splice so more like 2nd leg of support to deformity around host, 2nd leg pulls with /not across Standing Part....
>>the fact doesn't deform Standing Part,
>>and securing grab floats away from host, not pinches in to host, shows is as independent support leg
.
Bowline is good in most of our materials (not so friendly in super stiffs or fishline etc.)
>>BUT Bowline is a VERY harsh deformity in Standing Part;
>>fig.8 based lacings give a softer deformity in that they take that longer route to deform for less impact of change/test out better
.
Bowline said to be king of knots
>>in a world of harsher Standing Part bends commonly leaving 50% tensile strength usable in shituation;
>>Bowline is stronger and more secure than general class knots ; but we deal in upper class knots..
.
i consider a Bowline (Double or Single) as only properly pulling across perpendicular to host;
Most loads will hang as inline, not perpendicular line pull; so wrong angle of pull by Bowline mechanic
>>Pull of Standing Part NOT pure inline with equal/opposite force of stop in loop opposite Standing Part
so would always and all ways precede w/Half-Hitch(HH) or Marl to modify(making this the most loaded, primary deforming fail point)
>>BUT note now how on INLINE hang, HH/Marl Standing Part pull is now inline with the stop of that section of mechanic
>>the Working End of HH/Marl exiting is PURE INLINE w/Standing Part of HH as Working End of HH leads to Bowline.
.
Bowline i believe in Bitter End tail INSIDE;
>>find OUTSIDE to not being in the force path of the most immediate Nip
>>leaves Bitter End more free-agent or only getting secondary forces for resulting Nip to secure.
and that is what the guys i think are most knowledge-able seem to say after a lot of chasing it with all i got ;
as DBY was my own choice in materials we use.
.
Perhaps i was slack and don't take things far enough,
but that is where my journey ended(fer now)!
.
i'd replace to DBY as you say as always doing simple best, is more secure
>>just have found tweak to retaining more tensile strength not as high a return as would hope!
****************************************************
Rest of this is filled start to finish with PERSONAL THEORIES/ NO BACKERS :
Pushing usable tensile strength very far over 70-80%
on lacing that just deforms, not grips Standing Part is pretty tough i think.
.
Please note that the longer ride over same deformity for Double vs Single Bowline is not real angle across railroad track imagery
>>but rather more like going over 2 sets of RR tracks
>>so major 'savings' would be due to the up/down being farther apart as less impacting change-back,
>>NOT more gradual climb over initial deformity like hitting RR angled for less impact of change initially..
.
Better architectures w/o deforming fully loaded Standing Part so harshly:
Round Turn around Standing Part (straight Standing Part w/only Turn on host) based
>>seems to manage deformity, hug all around just not deform Standing Part, test out better
.
OR friction hitch back to self away from host (sharp angle less loading)
>>like splice so more like 2nd leg of support to deformity around host, 2nd leg pulls with /not across Standing Part....
>>the fact doesn't deform Standing Part,
>>and securing grab floats away from host, not pinches in to host, shows is as independent support leg
.
Bowline is good in most of our materials (not so friendly in super stiffs or fishline etc.)
>>BUT Bowline is a VERY harsh deformity in Standing Part;
>>fig.8 based lacings give a softer deformity in that they take that longer route to deform for less impact of change/test out better
.
Bowline said to be king of knots
>>in a world of harsher Standing Part bends commonly leaving 50% tensile strength usable in shituation;
>>Bowline is stronger and more secure than general class knots ; but we deal in upper class knots..
.
i consider a Bowline (Double or Single) as only properly pulling across perpendicular to host;
Most loads will hang as inline, not perpendicular line pull; so wrong angle of pull by Bowline mechanic
>>Pull of Standing Part NOT pure inline with equal/opposite force of stop in loop opposite Standing Part
so would always and all ways precede w/Half-Hitch(HH) or Marl to modify(making this the most loaded, primary deforming fail point)
>>BUT note now how on INLINE hang, HH/Marl Standing Part pull is now inline with the stop of that section of mechanic
>>the Working End of HH/Marl exiting is PURE INLINE w/Standing Part of HH as Working End of HH leads to Bowline.
.
Bowline i believe in Bitter End tail INSIDE;
>>find OUTSIDE to not being in the force path of the most immediate Nip
>>leaves Bitter End more free-agent or only getting secondary forces for resulting Nip to secure.
