Altissimus
TreeHouser
The Tirfor is your best tree puler ....(when you don't have a D=7)
Mechanical advantage?
- Thread starter treesmith
- Start date
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CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
It was Rob... he just hooked the unit to it instead of taking off the fig 8.... He had lowered right before we pulled the tree over... We had that talk...
F
fallguy
Guest
We have moved transformers at work that weigh up to 50,000 lbs with those Tirfor winches. They are very smooth and it already been stated but they do not damage the cable in the process.
T
The Branch Doctor
Guest
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
I like it... Great pics! I have been wanting to try that kind of set up for a while. Granted I rarely have to pull a tree very far to commit out of a lean... But I know the opportunity will eventually present itself ...
T
TheTreeSpyder
Guest
We can use the forces to directly counterbalance the lean, or make the hinge stronger (like wedges can, rope is jsut pull instead of push to same target). Of curse we can get distance (faster folding) too, instead of power from hinge; but this is usally not target value(faster hinge folding). The hinge strength is dicatated by force on hinge (so with added forces is wedge and rope forces we apply, that don't counter lean) at first moments of folding of the hinge, more load on hinge at this point (even artificially by rope or wedge) forces an earlier folding of hinge with more fibre amount and leveraged distance, and perhaps applied at a better angle (if against partial sidelean). This stronger hinge can give more controlled felling by counterbalancing / ballasting the sidelean and/or fell slower/softer. If felling without sidelean/ inline to the facing; we can use a powerpull too pull forward a backleaner and/ or softer felling. Softer felling can be less / Zer0 ground damage, less sprung limbs, less dirt in bark etc.
In rigging we can also muscle over a limb into the rigging, so as to not shock the rigging etc. At this point, the hinge just becomes another rigging point, that you eventually discard; kinda like having something butt tied; and cutting it free at the end after the rope has it. We can even pull over a limb to the left, to even more super tighten the rigging pulling to the right to not shock the rigging line and keep it tighter the whole way. For if we fold the hinge towards the rigging line we invite more slack, so folding away, can give more pretightening, before tearoff of the hinge.
i think that rope pulls should come from above CG to get best rotation force on hinge.
In rigging we can also muscle over a limb into the rigging, so as to not shock the rigging etc. At this point, the hinge just becomes another rigging point, that you eventually discard; kinda like having something butt tied; and cutting it free at the end after the rope has it. We can even pull over a limb to the left, to even more super tighten the rigging pulling to the right to not shock the rigging line and keep it tighter the whole way. For if we fold the hinge towards the rigging line we invite more slack, so folding away, can give more pretightening, before tearoff of the hinge.
i think that rope pulls should come from above CG to get best rotation force on hinge.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #32
Would it be possible for you to illustrate the 21:1 scenario? I get the 15:1 idea, but fail to understand where the 21:1 comes in.
B
Blinky
Guest
We just did the 3:1 + 5:1 rig yesterday to pull down a hung up oak.
T
TheTreeSpyder
Guest
i'll try to draw that out; am at werk now. But, essentially; instead of just piggybacking 3xRig on end of 5xRig; so that 3xRig has an anchor external to the system.... Place the 'lower' pull(2xPoint that usually pulls on anchor) of the 3xRig from anchor to pulling at a 3xPoint(3x to 'top' krab, but 4x to bottom krab of 5xRig) inside of the 5xRig; making the system a compund pulley system; kinda like a Spanish Burton.
i think of the flow of the mechanical force thru the rope as electricity thru a wire. So, let's not 'ground out' to anchor the 2xPoint of the 3xRig, but close that circuit to conserve those forces and pass to the load we are pulling(instead of to the anchor). That 2xPoint(lower pulley of the 3xRig) is just the equal opposite of the 3xEnd less the leg of pull of the control line(3x-1x); so let's put that 2x to work, and not 'ground it out' by letting it's force flow to anchor/ground.
The, 21x is potential (then less frictions etc. for actual); but then is also a conservative potential too; for a man can exert over /almost 2tons of pressure with this strategy. In that it could be 21xBodyweight + 32xEffort, by insetting the man as initating pull inset inside of the 3xRig, the way that the 3xRig is then inset inside of the 5xRig. So that a 100#Man with a 50#Pull, can have a potentail of 21x100 + 32x50=3700#. This would be kind of a compounded x compunded(inset inside of inset) system, for we are now using the equal and opposite of the man's effort, as well as the equal and opposite force of the 3xRig, all folded to target and each then multiplied....Only the outside rig needs to be grounded, other groundings are a 'waste' of potential forces.
i think of the flow of the mechanical force thru the rope as electricity thru a wire. So, let's not 'ground out' to anchor the 2xPoint of the 3xRig, but close that circuit to conserve those forces and pass to the load we are pulling(instead of to the anchor). That 2xPoint(lower pulley of the 3xRig) is just the equal opposite of the 3xEnd less the leg of pull of the control line(3x-1x); so let's put that 2x to work, and not 'ground it out' by letting it's force flow to anchor/ground.
The, 21x is potential (then less frictions etc. for actual); but then is also a conservative potential too; for a man can exert over /almost 2tons of pressure with this strategy. In that it could be 21xBodyweight + 32xEffort, by insetting the man as initating pull inset inside of the 3xRig, the way that the 3xRig is then inset inside of the 5xRig. So that a 100#Man with a 50#Pull, can have a potentail of 21x100 + 32x50=3700#. This would be kind of a compounded x compunded(inset inside of inset) system, for we are now using the equal and opposite of the man's effort, as well as the equal and opposite force of the 3xRig, all folded to target and each then multiplied....Only the outside rig needs to be grounded, other groundings are a 'waste' of potential forces.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #35
I definitely could use a diagram of this concept. I understand hooking a 3:1 to a 5:1 to yield a 15:1. It's the 21:1 that I'm lost on. Now you're saying that a 100# man can yield 3700# of pull...wouldn't that be 37:1? By the way, what type/brand of blocks are you using? Fiddle blocks or something like Sherrill's tree pulling kit?
T
TheTreeSpyder
Guest
You have to break the inputs into bodyweight and effort. We are going to be using the equal and opposite of your effort, but can't use the equal and opposite of your bodyweight; for your mass existance itself is the equal and opposite. So, it would be 21xBodyweight input and 32xEffort input added together.
Your 37x is 37x the bodyweight of 100. But, if we took that errantly as the output of the 50#Effort, that would be 74x (74x50=3700).
All blocks have same potential, just reduce the potential by frictions on at sheave to axle, and also not being inline pulls when more than 1 sheave on an end. So, the Fiddle Blocks would preserve more potential perhaps by having bearings to reduce friction (as compaired to bushing) and being more inline than a side by side block configuration(of multiple sheaves on a single end). Larger sheave diameter gives more leverage over axle friction, so also is a more efficient strategy; towards preserving more of the potential forces. i have some drawings of pulleys at house, that i will try to rework for illustration of this, but am gone 13hrs./day for next 3 daze-but will try to put something up tonite.
Your 37x is 37x the bodyweight of 100. But, if we took that errantly as the output of the 50#Effort, that would be 74x (74x50=3700).
All blocks have same potential, just reduce the potential by frictions on at sheave to axle, and also not being inline pulls when more than 1 sheave on an end. So, the Fiddle Blocks would preserve more potential perhaps by having bearings to reduce friction (as compaired to bushing) and being more inline than a side by side block configuration(of multiple sheaves on a single end). Larger sheave diameter gives more leverage over axle friction, so also is a more efficient strategy; towards preserving more of the potential forces. i have some drawings of pulleys at house, that i will try to rework for illustration of this, but am gone 13hrs./day for next 3 daze-but will try to put something up tonite.
T
TheTreeSpyder
Guest
Couldn't imbed flash here this time for some (t)reason...
i got part of this done; the link below shows the 21xRig from compounding the 5xRig and the 3xRig, by insetting the 3xRig inside of the 5xRig. This can be done on a long rig, though the 21x is just a potential, and every wee bit of friction, stretch, non-inlined-ness will nibble away at that outside potential to lessen it to be less than that 21x potential.
Now, If we inset a man pulling inside of the 3xRig, that then in turn pulls on the 5xRig, and the man uses his bodyweight and his effort pull; (s)he can have a potential of 21xBodyweight + 32xEffort. So, that a 100# person with a 50# hand pull can create 21x100 + 32x50=3700# force potential; just by watching what they are doing, and setting it up right! i'll work on adding that next...
The key hear is to not only using the pulling forces of your effort and the inset 3xRig, but also the equal and opposite of their pulls too!! The Equal and Opposite Forces are promised to be present there with us, all wee have to do is tap into them!
i got part of this done; the link below shows the 21xRig from compounding the 5xRig and the 3xRig, by insetting the 3xRig inside of the 5xRig. This can be done on a long rig, though the 21x is just a potential, and every wee bit of friction, stretch, non-inlined-ness will nibble away at that outside potential to lessen it to be less than that 21x potential.
Now, If we inset a man pulling inside of the 3xRig, that then in turn pulls on the 5xRig, and the man uses his bodyweight and his effort pull; (s)he can have a potential of 21xBodyweight + 32xEffort. So, that a 100# person with a 50# hand pull can create 21x100 + 32x50=3700# force potential; just by watching what they are doing, and setting it up right! i'll work on adding that next...
The key hear is to not only using the pulling forces of your effort and the inset 3xRig, but also the equal and opposite of their pulls too!! The Equal and Opposite Forces are promised to be present there with us, all wee have to do is tap into them!
You can open the window to full screen(with the above link), then even try right clicking inside of the Flash movie, and choosing ZOOM several times while over pulley etc.(then use mouse 'hand cursor' to drag scene and pan around) to see all the detail of the vector, rather than raster (raster/.bmp/.jpg would have detail loss, rather than gain on zooming in; and also larger file size) graphics.
