ISA

[frans]

So once again I shot my mouth off.
My beef is with the ISA and local chapters. Here in Northern CA the Western Chapter of the ISA is virtually non existent. Just about every tree worker I have spoken to does not participate in being a member UNLESS they have an employer who foots the bill. Even then, the conferences are usually in some tropical vacation spot which is far out of reach financially for just about all of the smaller companies.
It seems that here in Northern CA the professional organizations are not well represented. In fact I would say the majority of folks working trees around here don't participate at all or even have only a vague idea of these organizations.

Seems like the major professional effort is to get a contractor's license and liability insurance. That's it.
I think it is different for other areas.

My questions are:

How many of you all participate in the ISA, TCIA, and the smaller chapters?
Do you feel that it is worth the dues?
How many USED to be a cert arborist and have let it drop?

just curious

 

[stig]

I don't participate in anything.
I'm certified, but only because it is a must in order to get county and state work.
If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have bothered.

 

[Mellow]

I've been an ISA Certified Arborist for nearly 30 years. The cost of maintaining the certification has definitely increased substantially over the years but I look at it as simply another cost of doing business. Recently, I've noticed many more potential customers are asking if I am certified so there is obviously more awareness among the general public regarding the certification. While I do enjoy the benefits of the many workshops, conferences, and seminars, I also perceive a shift in the ISA philosophy from basic education to revenue generation.

Having said that, it may be in your best interest to get certified in order to get a leg up on your competitors.

 

[SeanKroll]

Mine lapsed. Techno-snafu for CEUs, not available by tablet, and my computer was down at the end of the ceu period. I got busy. I have all the work I can handle, presently, even neglecting a couple pruning jobs that I have to get on, after storms.

I'll get it again, as it will bring in better work.


I sometimes ask if they ask professional race car drivers for their driver's license, the same that any 16-18 year old can get. I explain that ISA CA exam knows to tie in twice, but nothing about shooting 100' TIP for SRT base-ties and Wraptor rides. The CA has almost nothing about root disease, and it certainly isn't anything we have around here, like Laminated Root Disease caused by Phellinus Sulfurescens, Annosus root and butt rot, Phytophtera lateralis, causal organism or Port Orford Cedar Root Disease...

Sometimes someone need a CA report. I am too busy if it isn't one of my regular customers; they extremely rarely need reports.

 

[Merle Nelson]

I find more than enough CEU earning classes within one to two hours of us Frans to keep up my ISA cert. (Classes I want to take.)

Day long pruning class coming up at the end of Feb in Santa Rosa, 20 minute drive from you. Gilman has a lot of great and intriguing info $95? One fifth of three years ceu's. The Sherril west coast program has over 1/3 of three years ceu's for $50 food included. All kinds of free quizs to take, open book, for ceu's. I don't bother with those because I'm about 50 to 70% over what I need each renewal time anyway.

Treestuff has some interesting looking free webinars for free ceu's.

It's probably never been better for us.

Sean, ISA was flexible with one guy I knew of if I recall. Put in a call and propose a catch up schedule. No gain in washing you out and you having to start from zero again. Jot down a list of what you have accomplished with daughter, home and hearth instead of fixing your computer as a first priority, what person could resist that?

 

[frans]

I've been an ISA Certified Arborist for nearly 30 years. The cost of maintaining the certification has definitely increased substantially over the years but I look at it as simply another cost of doing business. Recently, I've noticed many more potential customers are asking if I am certified so there is obviously more awareness among the general public regarding the certification. While I do enjoy the benefits of the many workshops, conferences, and seminars, I also perceive a shift in the ISA philosophy from basic education to revenue generation.

Having said that, it may be in your best interest to get certified in order to get a leg up on your competitors.

Spent about the same time cert as you btw.
Question: are you specifically asked if you are a ISA cert arborist or simply 'are you an arborist'?

Your last sentence I have heard many times. 'Get ahead of your competitors by being certified' .
I no longer believe that, in fact I think it is a myth put forward by the ISA.

I don't know if my original post was unclear. I AM NOT Talking about me being cert. My cert was wc-2236. I let it lapse some years ago. Also cert tree worker, signed by Tory Young.

My post IS NOT about becoming cert. More about how folks feel about the cert program.

 

[Merle Nelson]

I feel fine about it. If I didn't, I fear I would have to get up off this couch, looking out over a beautiful sunset lit harbor, and do something about it. One of the last magazines, ISA or Western Chapter said, 'We are a volunteer driven organization' and etc.

 

[frans]

The wcisa was recently asking for submissions for 'excellence in arboriculture'. Dues paying members please apply.

O.k. But what about the MAJORITY of tree workers toiling day in and day out who know nothing about the wcisa, who are doing excellent work?
If nothing else, I feel this vast population is underserved simply because of the dues structure.
Another few points to consider:

I know many owners of tree companies that do literally millions of dollars in revenue who care less about the cert program. In fact it seems like the majority of large company owners are this way. So how does it 'give a leg up on the competition?

Also, it seems to me that if the ISA, TCIA, is indeed so effective, why do they avoid creating programs which would assist with workmans comp and group health care?
Just food for thought.

 

[Stumpshot]

No ISA cert here (but TCIA member). We could get a Kansas Arborist Association certification by taking a 10 day course at K-State in the fall. But only one municipality near us requires a certification, and that's to be expected how uptight the area is. Simpler just to not work there, given the patchwork of 25+ towns/municipalities that make up the greater Kansas City metro. Plenty large work zone, can easily cut out one square mile or two!

 

[Mellow]

Have you voiced your concerns directly to the Western Chapter? Do you attend their meetings? Have you volunteered for a place of the Board of Directors so that you can be part of the solution?

 

[lumberjack]

I got my certification when I was 18 or 19, never renewed it. A couple years after getting it, I was one of 42 in the state.

 

[frans]

Have you voiced your concerns directly to the Western Chapter? Do you attend their meetings? Have you volunteered for a place of the Board of Directors so that you can be part of the solution?

I used to. Spent a few thousand hours volunteering. When the BMCA cert came out I lost interest in the entire thing. Thereby diluting the cert arborist program.

Yes I have brought up my concerns:

Overlapping multiple certs, blatant revenue enhancement

Zero reciprocity with established jr. Colleges and 4 year universities, why? Because the ISA doesn't want to expose themselves to potentially losing revenue by being a stepping stone to a person getting a degree then dropping the cert.

Chapter conferences in vacation resort areas instead of more local. Catalina island? Hawaii ? Only people that travel to those locations are business owners seeking a vacation and tax write off.

Requests for 'excellence in arboriculture' nominees, but only dues paying members.

High cost of CEUs putting it out of reach of the average worker. The party line is to 'it doesn't cost if you get your employer to pay for it'.

No nationwide advertising campaign promoting proper tree work

Never have heard of a company or person getting their cert yanked for crap work. Never.
And one of my wishes/ suggestions is why not attempt to create a pool for health care and liability insurance ?

Only 1 equipment trade show I can remember in Northern California.

Very little climbing skills workshops. The CAA did far more. I can't think how many local workshops we put on.

No equipment demo workshops, last one I remember was Chad Bray, but that was Treestuff sponsored.

The isa toutes itself as being 'research based'. Not practical on the ground assistance/ knowledge.

It used to be that with the CAA anyway, that if you wanted to be a member you would have to make a contribution to the industry. Hold a workshop, organize an equipment show, sponsor an event, etc etc. nowadays it is simply pay your dues.

I estimate at least half of all ISA arborists now do not actually work on trees, much less climb. What is the count now for wcisa cert arborists? Over 20 thousand ? That's a shit load of dues.

case Turnbull with plant amesty did far more to raise the standards of tree care overall than the ISA in my opinion. As did Don Blair. Just to name a couple names.

It is sad to see so many cert arborists who give conflicting info to homeowners.

 

[Mellow]

Like I said, I believe their focus has shifted from research and education to creating new revenue streams. I'll continue to renew my certification if only as an incentive to attend seminars and workshops that I might otherwise ignore.

 

[SeanKroll]

Brett, thanks for the thought. This was a couple 4 years ago.

I'll just get around to retaking it the exam, I think. Won't hurt to call first.

 

[treebogan]

I used to have it,I let it lapse because what I got from it (zero) did not equate to the cost of membership.

 

[MasterBlaster]

That sounds about right!

 

[sotc]

Have you voiced your concerns directly to the Western Chapter? Do you attend their meetings? Have you volunteered for a place of the Board of Directors so that you can be part of the solution?

I'll answer this for him, yes, he has and does often

Frans, to me, the cert is as good as you want it to be. I got my tree worker cert down there with Sam, I blew away the other guys in the skills climb, there is no way those guys climbed for 18 months before testing so there is certainly some shenanigans. Soon as I had 3 years in I got certified, didn't feel any smarter. Now I have renewed my BCMA a few times and I still feel like I don't know squat. The more I learn, the more I realize how much there is to know. You don't know what you don't know, ya know? I have realized most guys get the cert just to get certain jobs and maintain it just for that. I tell my guys, the cert is a foundation to build on, not the end goal, but the start. Doctors are still practicing and they work on a single species, how the heck are we supposed to be experts on hundreds of species that have different pests, diseases, nutrient and climate requirements? I feel the one thing the CEU's do for me is to encourage me to continue learning. It is kinda exciting to know there is more to learn. When I moved here I was disappointed in the lack of opportunities in my area and the quality of the conferences compared to your area.... So I have maintained my Western chapter membership this entire time as well as PNW. I was just on the Western website last night, so many events coming up including Santa Rosa (I would venture to say there is 1 to 2 events there a year). I am considering Hawaii this spring, I love the thought of writing that trip off, that is one of the great things about owning a business! I do also feel ISA is a bit of a money grub and that TCIA is much more of a business benefit. I am a member there and ASCA as well with minimal complaints. Anyway, gotta go get the crew rolling.
Love ya buddy :*

 

[frans]

Willie, I forgot about that point, I become certified, with all the ongoing costs, then have to pay also for membership.
I started to feel like the an ATM for these guys.

As for doctors, try qualifying to become a veterinarian ! Takes longer than a MD degree lol

 

[sotc]

Good point, if you're certified through them, and maintain it I'd agree, you should probably just be a member... at least through international..

 

[jefflovstrom]

Hi Frans,
I am WE-7624A , TCIA Accredited Company, CTSP, etc,,
I get what you are saying tho,
We do feel left out on a lot of the conferences and seminars, but we maintain our status because it is better than losing it.
Many of or clients require those credentials and our company pays for everything to maintain them. I do like and learn a lot from them and I think it makes me more professional.
Just my thoughts,
Jeff

 

[frans]

Jefflovstrom, that's yet another 'hook' the ISA is very upfront about; i.e. Having the company pay for dues. Obviously your experience differs, however around here being certified only matters when bidding municipal or government work.
Far more weight is given to being licensed. But your average homeowner is only concerned about being insured.

Last I checked to join TCIA all you had to do was pay a percentage of your yearly gross. Nothing about plant health care.

 

[Bodean]

How would you all accept an ISA Pruning credential?

Something standardized.... seems most tree guys love gear and removals.

What about pruning and tree preservation?

 

[SkwerI]

Got my cert almost 25 years ago because it was paid for by my employer. Somehow the ISA lost my info and I never once received anything in the mail from them including the magazine. I went to a couple events but never bothered trying to collect CEU's and let it lapse after 3 years.

I still put 'Arborist' on my cards and truck signs because I am an arborist. Once in a blue moon somebody who has a clue might ask me if I am certified and I am up front with them about my certification experience. I have never once in the last 20 years claimed that I was certified but people still want my opinion on their trees because I'm an 'arborist'.

As far as government work requiring certification, I don't pursue that work for many reasons besides the certification requirement. I would need to hire an office staff to deal with all the headaches involved with taking on government work and I'm not willing to do that. Nope, I'm happy just being a local tree guy like all the others.

 

[JD3000]

My gripe will be similiar as many others in the the CA is far too easy of an exam and they are then sold as experts. TRAQ was a joke, I scored 100% but felt physics and mycology was basically glossed over during lectures and the exams.

I'm municipal now so it is required but only a few customers in the past when I was working commercial were interested in my education and certs. Kinda a kick in the pants.

BCMA was a difficult exam but I've heard folks say that their state arborist/tree workers exams are quite difficult as well. I would say the bar should be raised.

I would second the call to add a pruning cert or qualification as well as a PHC one that is SORELY needed and should be a difficult exam as well.

Never had a problem with CEUs, I'm well over 100 for this cycle. PC, tablet, written and mail-in etc. I can also get them for teaching or giving talks but haven't bothered cuz I have so many. With the cert (and perhaps membership?) You can get a bunch a year from AN and JoAaUF as well as some from the local chapter. Bundles can be purchased from the ISA store but make sure that they don't include quizzes that you have taken in the past.

 

[Bodean]

Good input. Thank you.

Yes. CA was meant as a standard basic arb cert that covered everything....

Many many people believe it to be the end all be all test... though many also understand it's a very basic level of standardization...

It's something to jump off of into other things more specific...


Specification or prescription pruning could be a new cert...

That would state you know how to prune...


That's all anyone does to a tree is prune... some people prune them to the ground.