How big can you go?

[Bounce]

I did a job recently taking down 5 extremely large (50-70" dbh) cottonwoods. I was subbing for a guy who wanted me to lower 16.5' logs so he could get some lumber value out of the wood (still can't believe cottonwood is worth enough to haul it to the mill though). I found myself butt hitching bigger pieces than I've ever lowered before and was surprised at how little difference there was between lowering a real big piece and a more normal size chunk. Once I got over the nervousness of watching something that big sail past me, I found it was no big deal at all. I had to use much bigger rigging gear than normal, there were more wraps on the portawrap than usual, and I had to climb with an 880 with a 48" bar (and still had to cut from both sides on the last cut on every tree), but other than that it was no different. Ever since, I've had fun seeing how big I can go.

How big of a piece are you guys comfortable cutting & lowering, and what do you think are the factors that limit you?

 

[Burnham]

First and foremost, the condition of the spar has to be able to stand up to the loads.

All the rest comes second.

Rope handler has to be spot on to maximize piece size safely, and that part is the hardest to achieve piece after piece, consistently.

 

[brendonv]

A general rule for me, I usually go small. Obviously what the spar looks like matters, but sending big logs down on rope is something I am still a wuss about.

Big I mean 20" diameter 8' long kinda thing.

 

[Bounce]

The condition of the spar is a definitely limitation. But assuming the spar is sound and you have a competent ground work (I took the job on the condition that I could use my own groundie who is awesome at letting pieces run), why not go bigger? Job gets done faster, you go home sooner. I just simply realized that I've been extremely conservative in the size of pieces I used to cut, and the only thing stopping me from going bigger was me.

 

[SkwerI]

For me, the difference between 20" diameter to 26"-28" diameter is huge. due to how our trees typically grow around here I almost never have to rig anything that big and I'm thankful for that. I'll rig out huge tops as long as they have brush on them. The brush acts like a shock absorber to cushion the impact when it hits the trunk. It also acts like a sail to stop the piece from flailing around after it bounces off the trunk.

I smashed my thumb about 15 years ago rigging down a pine log and it is now a mental block for me. If I never rig another big piece of wood in my life (while climbing) then I'd be real OK with that.

 

[Bounce]

Brendon - Woodweb.com says a piece of Pin Oak 20" x 8' weighs 1106 lbs. 9/16" Stable braid (not even 5/8", let alone 3/4") give a wll of 1300 lbs. This is what I mean by something that used to seem big to me, but I've realized is actually quite small.

 

[SkwerI]

But the shock load of that piece hitting the end of the rope can be 3-4x the actual weight or more. Any time you start pushing potential shock load numbers up over 10K-15K it starts getting into territory that's a bit too risky for my taste. 20" wood is fine but 28" wood gets real heavy real fast.

 

[PCTREE]

Hey Sean, when I first started using the GRCS I started to go BIGGER with stuff as you can tension lines/ lift stuff. One day we had a piece of hackberry tied off that was full of vines , I tip tied it and tensioned lines as there were power lines under it.Figured that with all those vines it would be hard to do in small pieces. Made the cut and WOW the sucker started going down, the top of the tree looked like a fishing pole!! Guess I underestimated the weight of hackberry and the weight of all those vines! I know this is totally diferent from what you are talking about but it really impressed on me that when you "go big" the consiquences "get bigger" and a lot more costly!! Food for thought......

 

[Bounce]

True dat. When I took on this job, I went all out building a custom rigging system with 1" Hobbs block, custom 1" loopie sling, 3/4" stable braid, and a 3/4" tenex eye sling. I'm not saying there isn't any risk to going bigger, but there is also a benefit. Obviously at some point the risks outweight the potential benefits - the question is, where is that point?

 

[SkwerI]

Keep going until you find it. I'll take your word for it.

 

[Burnham]

I'd rather cut twice and be sure that I'm not pushing the envelope too far, instead of cut once and wonder about it.

Cluck-cluck-cluck....

 

[Bounce]

the shock load of that piece hitting the end of the rope can be 3-4x the actual weight or more

I usually plan on 7-10x.

 

[Bounce]

Wow, this is the sort of thing I'd expect on AS, but not here. Cut small - play it safe - I'm waiting for somebody to mention ANSI next.

 

[SkwerI]

I'm not trying to be argumentative because I do see Sean's point. For years I rarely roped anything heavier than a couple hundred pounds. But as I got older and more experienced I would take bigger and bigger pieces. Once I started working from a bucket it was much easier for me to take big pieces because my ass wasn't at risk. These days I have no problem rigging 2000 lb tops. (but I'm still a chicken on the really big wood)

And I don't GAF about ANSI. I care about not having catastrophic failures on the jobsite and going home in one piece.

 

[Burnham]

Wow, this is the sort of thing I'd expect on AS, but not here. Cut small - play it safe - I'm waiting for somebody to mention ANSI next.

See my recent thread, Sean!

I'm not saying cut small...I'll go big as most anyone. I'm saying I don't like pushing the envelope to the point that one small mistake by the rope handler, or one misjudgement on the condition of the gear and the way you've rigged it up means you're fairly likely to have a rigging failure.

 

[Bounce]

Maybe I've gotten too comfortable with a high level of risk - I dunno. It's true that if my groundie had 1/2 wrap too much on the porty, the line would probably have broken. But that's why I made sure to have somebody running the porty who knows how to do it. My point is, I successfully lowered pieces approx 6x as big an normal and it went fine. So why not go 2x as big as normal all the time?

What if what you thought was pushing the envelope this whole time was actually nowhere near the edge of the envelope?

 

[jomoco]

Suicide alert!

Danger Will Robinson!

Work Safe you stud you!

jomoco

 

[Burnham]

Maybe I've gotten too comfortable with a high level of risk - I dunno. It's true that if my groundie had 1/2 wrap too much on the porty, the line would probably have broken. But that's why I made sure to have somebody running the porty who knows how to do it. My point is, I successfully lowered pieces approx 6x as big an normal and it went fine. So why not go 2x as big as normal all the time?

What if what you thought was pushing the envelope this whole time was actually nowhere near the edge of the envelope?

Guess I can live with that .

It's really the difficulty with judging the integrity of the tree that keeps me from following your line of reasoning all the way out to the limit, whatever that might be, Sean.

 

[Wagnaw]

I butt hitched a 31", six foot long piece of locust once, well... twice that day... The company I was working for had never used a pulley and lowering device before. It was for the jaw drop effect.

 

[jomoco]

There was a guy that went big here in pine valley not so long ago roping out a head that uprooted the whole tree sending everything into high power lines killing the climber.

I had been working the same low bid county contract as a sub just a week prior when the company owner said screw this high danger lowbid BS and told everyone to go home.

Wise man, replaced by a company that went bankrupt complete with equipment firesale a month later after that fatality.

jomoco

 

[NeTree]

I'd rather cut twice and be sure that I'm not pushing the envelope too far, instead of cut once and wonder about it.

Cluck-cluck-cluck....

Yup.

 

[gf beranek]

If I worked with Greg Good as the groundie running the ropes I would feel comfortable taking any size chunk he'd say to take.

But the truth of the matter is I never had a groundie I could trust to take big pieces. Past experiences were brutal . Not on them but me.

There is certainly something to say about having a man on the ground that understands the meaning of "letting the work run"

So in the past, rather than risk getting my legs broke, I erred on the side of caution and just took way smaller pieces.

Brian's analogy is very accurate,,,as well as the rest.

Slam dunking wood into the rigging is not for the light hearted or inexperienced.

 

[MasterBlaster]

When I call for the 3/4" bullrope, the guy running the rope knows to get ready.

 

[Stumper]

I prefer pieces I can take in a fight. Lighter than I is good-heavier not so much.

 

[Bounce]

If Burnham, Brendon, Skwerl, PCTree, Jomoco, NETree, Gerry, Butch AND Stumper all agree, then I should probably listen. I want to be doing this for another 40+ years, and there's probably 200+ years of experience between the lot of you.