sotc
Dormant hero!!
No doubt, shut down discussion
Branch Saver Installation Question
- Thread starter 802climber
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Just the weight of a tarp after two years...
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SouthSoundTree-
TreeHouser
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In case you don't know, Cobra slings are about 2" wide. A Cobra system is likely less/ slightly more than the weight of your tarp.
Then why even list a 4 or 8ton tensile strength when the big wind hits hard enough to girdle the branch?
Only an experienced hands on arborist knows what happens by simply stepping onto the lateral of an Alnus, Betula or Populus tremuloides, it dislodges the entire bark n cambium right down to the xylem heartwood, massive pathogen inviting damage.
Whereas the old school century proven method of steel through bolt anchors can take literally tons of tensile pull with zero damage to even the softest barked trees.
Jomo
Only an experienced hands on arborist knows what happens by simply stepping onto the lateral of an Alnus, Betula or Populus tremuloides, it dislodges the entire bark n cambium right down to the xylem heartwood, massive pathogen inviting damage.
Whereas the old school century proven method of steel through bolt anchors can take literally tons of tensile pull with zero damage to even the softest barked trees.
Jomo
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treelooker
Treehouser
When you can scientifically prove/demonstrate that artificial support after X number of years creates dependency, aka a fault in the wood structure?
The court's going to ask what your rationale was for installing it?
Was it a perceived or imagined fault that you as a professional made real by installing a ticking time bomb set to go off in ten years?
Did you know that the 2 inch wide strapping anchors would become completely embedded by the cambium over that amount of time Mr. Arborist?
Have I said something the defense finds amusing?
Jomo
The court's going to ask what your rationale was for installing it?
Was it a perceived or imagined fault that you as a professional made real by installing a ticking time bomb set to go off in ten years?
Did you know that the 2 inch wide strapping anchors would become completely embedded by the cambium over that amount of time Mr. Arborist?
Have I said something the defense finds amusing?
Jomo
SouthSoundTree-
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Really? I've had a Cobra in a paperbark birch for 5 plus years. Regular inspections. Can't get your car brakes worked on once, and expect it to be fine, ever after, nor the siding on your house. Everything has its own maintenance interval, no?
Where's the logic in replacing an old school steel system proven to last up to 30 plus years, with an inferior synthetic system that's far less durable, highly flammable, considerably shorter lived, and way more vulnerable to environmental degradation?
Why replace something that works and lasts, with something weaker and far more vulnerable to the elements over time?
There's a dang good reason utility power infrastructures are held together with galvanized steel rather than synthetic polyester n propylene my friends.
Jomo
Why replace something that works and lasts, with something weaker and far more vulnerable to the elements over time?
There's a dang good reason utility power infrastructures are held together with galvanized steel rather than synthetic polyester n propylene my friends.
Jomo
SouthSoundTree-
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Your logic eludes me. Static systems prevent movement, and subsequent strengthening due to strain, more than dynamic systems.
Steel has its place, dynamic has its place.
Steel has its place, dynamic has its place.
But what's the reason you decide to cable rather than prune Sean, is it a real wood structure fault, or an imagined one?
A real fault, say a cracked splitting codominate leader White Birch? Needs to be statically stitched back together, with a non-girdling galvanized steel system that'll inevitably be totally engulfed inside the trunk. It don't need no stinkin maintenance badges....
Just throwing a branch saver up there because of an imagined or perceived threat? Open's a can of worms in time if the system can't remain structurally intact and functioning for say 30 years, with no maintenance, like many of mine, dozens n dozens of static steel old school cables?
You are in fact creating a fault in that tree's structure by installing a branch saver in it, absent a real n genuine fault.
That's the snake oil promotion aspect of this that degrades both the tree's integrity, as well our's as tree industry practitioners, IMO.
This is not a carnival, and our clients are not marks to be taken advantage of.
Jomo
A real fault, say a cracked splitting codominate leader White Birch? Needs to be statically stitched back together, with a non-girdling galvanized steel system that'll inevitably be totally engulfed inside the trunk. It don't need no stinkin maintenance badges....
Just throwing a branch saver up there because of an imagined or perceived threat? Open's a can of worms in time if the system can't remain structurally intact and functioning for say 30 years, with no maintenance, like many of mine, dozens n dozens of static steel old school cables?
You are in fact creating a fault in that tree's structure by installing a branch saver in it, absent a real n genuine fault.
That's the snake oil promotion aspect of this that degrades both the tree's integrity, as well our's as tree industry practitioners, IMO.
This is not a carnival, and our clients are not marks to be taken advantage of.
Jomo
SouthSoundTree-
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Are 30 year old cables in the right place any more? Haven't ones had to be added above?
Dynamic systems get replaced more often, so there is a system at a better height. Tree continues to strengthen through movement.
Prune and cable, or just prune. Tree to tree. I don't cable much, by the way.
Dynamic systems get replaced more often, so there is a system at a better height. Tree continues to strengthen through movement.
Prune and cable, or just prune. Tree to tree. I don't cable much, by the way.
SouthSoundTree-
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Loose, establishment staking is not for bad structure, its for root development without windthrow. Apples to oranges, sorta.
Your honor,
I present to the court exhibit one.
http://youtu.be/LXdLs_TANG8
Defense counsel claims installation of this product is a benefit to both tree and its owner, the plaintiff in this case.
But the plaintiff has clearly shown to the court that artificial support that's installed into a tree, but incapable of providing that support throughout the entire life of the tree, is a liability, an accident waiting to happen.
Indeed, rather than benefiting either tree or owner, it's installation became a ticking time bomb liability.
Emphasizing why cabling and bracing should only be done once a real fault or flaw in the tree's structure has been identified, quantified and compensated for with a system of support durable enough to last the lifetime of the tree.
Now you stand accused of installing branch savers into a tree with no structural faults or flaws, that the supported branches became dependent on that support over a ten year period, at which point the system failed, causing the branches to fail and crash onto the owner's home.
The owner claims that steel tree support systems are common in trees over homes that last 30 plus years.
Was your client duly informed of the synthetic system's vulnerabilities compared to the steel system used traditionally?
The jury has heard the evidence, seen the video, the taut synthetic cable, nice n tight, the claim that this little bit of artificial support could not have been reasonably predicted to have disastrous consequences after a few decades of life, in a tree capable of hundreds of years more.
How do you the jury find, the insurance industry, the home owner, the tree industry?
Jomo
I present to the court exhibit one.
http://youtu.be/LXdLs_TANG8
Defense counsel claims installation of this product is a benefit to both tree and its owner, the plaintiff in this case.
But the plaintiff has clearly shown to the court that artificial support that's installed into a tree, but incapable of providing that support throughout the entire life of the tree, is a liability, an accident waiting to happen.
Indeed, rather than benefiting either tree or owner, it's installation became a ticking time bomb liability.
Emphasizing why cabling and bracing should only be done once a real fault or flaw in the tree's structure has been identified, quantified and compensated for with a system of support durable enough to last the lifetime of the tree.
Now you stand accused of installing branch savers into a tree with no structural faults or flaws, that the supported branches became dependent on that support over a ten year period, at which point the system failed, causing the branches to fail and crash onto the owner's home.
The owner claims that steel tree support systems are common in trees over homes that last 30 plus years.
Was your client duly informed of the synthetic system's vulnerabilities compared to the steel system used traditionally?
The jury has heard the evidence, seen the video, the taut synthetic cable, nice n tight, the claim that this little bit of artificial support could not have been reasonably predicted to have disastrous consequences after a few decades of life, in a tree capable of hundreds of years more.
How do you the jury find, the insurance industry, the home owner, the tree industry?
Jomo
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Your honor, Stark Raving tree service reduced my tree 20 years ago and said I didn't need A cable. The tree just split and killed my dog, cat AND gold fish, I'm suffering now, help me.
I'm guessing you only prune a tree once in thirty years and never go back...
I'm guessing you only prune a tree once in thirty years and never go back...
treelooker
Treehouser
Many holes in Jon's logic, but that one is huge!
Zero maintenance is not a reasonable expectation after ANY service. Jon don't you use a disclaimer? I'm wondering where all this liabilophobia comes from.
How's the chipper safety campaign going?
Wisdom is knowing when you're not needed, and acknowledging when both tree and owner are better off without you charging them for this n that, unless warranted by a genuine defect.
I often wonder if we cause more tree problems than we solve?
Planting unneeded time bombs in client trees ain't gonna burnish our industry reputation in a good way I assure you!
Jomo
I often wonder if we cause more tree problems than we solve?
Planting unneeded time bombs in client trees ain't gonna burnish our industry reputation in a good way I assure you!
Jomo
802climber
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #44
I thought that ALL artificial support systems require annual inspection per ANSI standards?
Here is a large ash we pruned. The branch rigged up in the pic was dead and decayed from the drilling site and upwards. There was another steel cable in the tree which had failed at the eye. The new homeowners weren't even aware the cables were up there. The cables did not look to be too old.
I installed a dynamic support system in a large sugar maple that had several included main crotches. "Real" inclusion with good response growth, and no signs of failure. The situation did not seem to justify drilling through the tree 3-6 times to install a comparable steel system. The client, who does not want the tree drilled, understands that the system will require annual inspections to include possible adjustment or replacement with steel cabling/bracing should any of the "real" structural defects worsen enough to merit installing such a system.
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Here is a large ash we pruned. The branch rigged up in the pic was dead and decayed from the drilling site and upwards. There was another steel cable in the tree which had failed at the eye. The new homeowners weren't even aware the cables were up there. The cables did not look to be too old.
I installed a dynamic support system in a large sugar maple that had several included main crotches. "Real" inclusion with good response growth, and no signs of failure. The situation did not seem to justify drilling through the tree 3-6 times to install a comparable steel system. The client, who does not want the tree drilled, understands that the system will require annual inspections to include possible adjustment or replacement with steel cabling/bracing should any of the "real" structural defects worsen enough to merit installing such a system.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Topping trees without follow up care within 2-3 years?
Yet another example of snake oil salesman takin advantage of clients like marks at a carnival!
Do you treat your clients thatta way Willie?
Jomo
802climber
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #46
Oh and FWIW here's a pic of the original spruce. Don't have one from farther out. Maybe it could be left as is and be fine for years, or be static cabled and braced to high hell and still fail! Who really knows!
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Would you believe my interest in the subject of cabling is the result of having installed lots n lots of them, as well as correcting lots n lots of slipshod cables installed by arborists who can't see straight, can't tell the difference between a hardwood tree and a softwood conifer?
Do you recommend leaving saplings staked for over 2 years, 5 years, 10 years?
Saplings with no discernible flaws, but look kinda funny n peculiar to your keen eye?
Jomo
Looks like a rodding job with a big electric drill 802.
No cables needed, just 3 one inch rods in a vertical stagger pattern, comprising 6 vertical feet.
250 per rod, 750 bucks, and never leave the ground!
Why even a crippled old senior like me could do it...
Maybe not though, them big lectric drill motors can break your arm n stuff.
Jomo
No cables needed, just 3 one inch rods in a vertical stagger pattern, comprising 6 vertical feet.
250 per rod, 750 bucks, and never leave the ground!
Why even a crippled old senior like me could do it...
Maybe not though, them big lectric drill motors can break your arm n stuff.
Jomo
sotc
Dormant hero!!
No idea where that came from. Stark raving was meant as a joke but I'm feeling it's more foresight.
Pardon me, I'm parked in front of another victim I need to plunder, gotta go!
