What is this guy using for his safety rope setup?

[Robert P]

Watching this video of essentially what I'm planning to do, cut down a couple of trees, maybe not quite as tall as this one. Trying to see what he's using for his second safety rope and rope grab - as opposed to the flipline. Unfortunately they don't go into any explanation. There are fairly clear shots of the hardware at about 6:05 and 14:12.

How would you rate his overall procedure/technique? Anything you'd do differently? I notice the helmet he's wearing doesn't have a chinstrap.

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[Husabud]

Welcome Robert. Have you climbed trees before for a professional company? I wouldn't suggest learning from YouTube.that guy looks like he's been at it for a short time. In his first cut he one handed the saw in front of his face.
The rope looks like Arborplex.

 

[GemCutter]

...Trying to see what he's using for his second safety rope and rope grab - as opposed to the flipline. Unfortunately they don't go into any explanation. There are fairly clear shots of the hardware at about 6:05 and 14:12...

I'm not sure which brand, but he's using hand ascender. I'm not very experienced, but that would not be something I would use. All you can do to let rope out is take the weight off of it and release it. No way to gently let rope out with your weight on it.

You'd be much better off with a simple self tending pulley and hitch setup.

My inexpensive version...



...and the pricey version...http://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=296&item=1822#

 

[Robert P]

In his first cut he one handed the saw in front of his face.

I noticed he does a lot of one-handing the saw, my understanding is it's not recommended. I notice he also doesn't use the chip shield on the helmet.

 

[stig]

One thing I do differently is I sharpen my saws.

Why should he use the chip shield when he is wearing safety glasses.
Judging from the way he fliplines up the stem, he is a rookie.

 

[Robert P]

Judging from the way he fliplines up the stem, he is a rookie.

Why do you say that?

 

[stig]

Have you ever watched a real old lady ride a bicycle?
Kinda wobbling, afraid to fall.
That is what he reminds me of.

When you flipline up a stem, you hold the flipline, you don't hug the tree. Flip the line ( Hence the name!) step- step, flip line, step-step, flip line etc,etc.
He doesn't have any kind of rytm going. Going up that short, naked tree trunk should be a matter of a minute, tops.
Also he sticks his ass too far out and stomps the spurs in, because he is afraid of gaffing out. Another rookie thing.
Also all the fiddling around with two lines every time he cuts a branch. Far as I can tell, he is using a steel core lanyard, so he could just stop just below the branch, cut it off and move on.

He is making Sooooo many unnecessary moves, which to me says: " Rookie".
I've been teaching this stuff for over 20 years, and teaching beginners to avoid uneccessary moves is really hard. All that futzing around is what keeps you from being productive, so you have to be conscious about not doing it.
That, and a dull saw, too! Notice around 9.34 how he moves it back and forward in the cut. That'll make it cut ever so much faster, right?
Had he been my apprentice, he would have been chewed out about the one handing, too.
No reason to one hand, when two will work just as good. One handing is for when you need it, not something to do indiscriminately.

 

[flushcut]

He is not very fluid and a smidge slow.

 

[Atlantaclimber]

He's slow and hesitant,no rhythm. Plus his saw control is rookie like to say the least

 

[SouthSoundTree]

Robert, I don't want to steal your fire about wanting to go do something very, very dangerous for a rookie who will not have anybody qualified to help in an emergency, and could lead to your death, but...

you might consider getting a put on ground only bid for removals, do the groundwork that you would have done anyway, watch the guys work (film it if you like for feedback here) and pursue some recreational climbing.

Personally, I'd been rock climbing for over a decade before any technical tree climbing, so I had lots of practice at not falling to my death. Wielding sharp objects and taking down lots of heavy wood off of the thing that my life support system is attached to, zero experience, but I'd been trained by the USFS for felling/ limbing/ bucking, and was decently good at it from that professional experience.

The Tree Climber's Guide and/ or Tree Climber's companion are good starting texts.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Is that fellow you, Robert?

He doesn't know how to use his lanyard, which tells me he probably doesn't know much else.

Proper lanyard useage around 1:40.

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[stig]

Can you tell the difference, Robert?
Butch is not afraid of gaffing out or falling, he moves in the tree the way he would walk across a floor ( Better, actually, I think he may walk a bit gimpy, from an accident), with confidence. No old lady on a bicycle, here.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

Just thinking about this, Robert, as a new climber that doesn't know what to look out for when "cutting down a couple trees" aka vertical rope access and positioning, plus highly technical hand and chainsaw work to move large (hopefully stable) amounts of wood from way away from any help/ rescue up in the air, to get it safely on the ground, without falling to your death or being a body recovery for the local fire department. I don't say this to deter you, just don't jump in too quickly. You should be confident moving all around a tree before you start moving lots a tree parts around.

The more accessible this work is to your skill set, the cheaper the job is going to be for Put On Ground Only service, aka climber cuts and runs, you clean. The more money you will save because its more technical, the increased risk of death or dismemberment.

As Stig mentions, Butch has a work related crushing injury, a veteran tree man with decades of experience. Shit happens.

Cost/ benefit?

Knowing the Ins and Outs of snap cuts, drop cuts, barber chairs and BC prevention, proper face cuts, bore cuts (when and when you don't need them), Circle of Death with your lanyard, partial and full dutchmen, fall arrest, gaffing out, gaffing your leg, and at least be plenty dialed on your climbing system before taking on removals. Climb safe, enjoy, don't get killed.

I Bandaged up a guy on a crew that almost lost his thumb. Doc said it was close. Thumbs are important. Took chainsaw cut stitches out of a guys chest and wrist. These were very, very minor mishaps that could have been very serious.

A weird bystander was making chipper eating people jokes at work yesterday at the end of the day. I had to tell him that its not funny to joke about death and dismemberment by machines that we use everyday. The danger is just so underestimated and under-understood until you are more experienced and educated and know all the things that can go wrong that aren't apparent. I.e. barber chairing a leaning lead that gets harder and harder to climb as it gets more horizontal. That split with a typical lanyard set-up can equal your guts coming out your butt.

 

[Tucker943]

I'll simplify all this. That guy was shit. Ignore his work.

 

[BOTS]

welcome Robert!

looks like video guy is a new climber/rookie, lots of bad habits already, cutting over head ect.

I give him credit for doing it but he needs a good climber teaching him step by step how to safely do a removal, not reckless cuts and positioning

 

[MasterBlaster]

Never cut over your head!

 

[Robert P]

Robert, I don't want to steal your fire about wanting to go do something very, very dangerous for a rookie who will not have anybody qualified to help in an emergency, and could lead to your death, but...

you might consider getting a put on ground only bid for removals, do the groundwork that you would have done anyway, watch the guys work (film it if you like for feedback here) and pursue some recreational climbing.

Personally, I'd been rock climbing for over a decade before any technical tree climbing, so I had lots of practice at not falling to my death. Wielding sharp objects and taking down lots of heavy wood off of the thing that my life support system is attached to, zero experience, but I'd been trained by the USFS for felling/ limbing/ bucking, and was decently good at it from that professional experience.

The Tree Climber's Guide and/ or Tree Climber's companion are good starting texts.

I appreciate the input. I'll see how it goes when the gear arrives and I've actually put some spikes to trees. Might spend a couple of days just practicing getting up and down. I think I've got enough self-honesty and sense to recognize if I actually feel confident enough to wield a chainsaw while up there. I'll have to see what the reality of being on the side of a tree is like. I might get halfway up and find myself saying "oh hell no..." We'll see.

Others have mentioned people with experience falling. I'm going to conjecture that perhaps their experience worked against them in that they let themselves get lax about safety & gravity? The guy in the video I referenced may seem cautious about getting his gaffs in solidly and being a bit anal about getting his secondary attachment in place, the most significant point to me is he doesn't fall out of the tree.

I'll also be in the position that I won't have some bossman riding me who's a little more concerned about git 'er done than he is about his crew's safety. If it takes me four times longer to get the tree down because I'm taking it slow I'm okay with that.

 

[Page]

I rarely spike down a tree. Seems like a waste of time and effort you don't need to spend.

 

[pantheraba]

Black Oak Tree Service said it well...the guy has some skill but he is not comfortable or efficient moving in the tree. His body position in relation to the tree makes my back hurt.

Do some recreational tree climbing to get your skills up, which makes you more comfortable and safer in the tree. Don't use tools in the tree until you get confident and efficient with spurs. Learn to use the lanyard efficiently. Learn good work positioning...for safety, efficiency and economy of energy...which makes you safer, too.

Study Jepson and Beranek's books...and find a good climber that can mentor you if possible.

 

[stig]

Robert, if that guy was one of my apprentices, he would not be using a chainsaw in a tree.
He is nowhere confident enough in his ability to move around.
I'd let him do hand saw pruning untill he wasn't scared of falling down and moving smoothly, then let him progress to chainsaw.
As for the. " I'm going to conjecture that perhaps their experience worked against them in that they let themselves get lax about safety & gravity? " part,that is pure bullshit and rather insulting as well. The work we do constantly puts us in situations where only luck and vigilance keeps us from getting hurt. You don't find many "lax about safety and gravity" climbers, they have put themselves out of the busines the hard way long ago.

When I took my climbing certificate back in 83, you had to be able to document 1000 hours with a chainsaw in order to qualify for the course at the forestry school.
I require my apprentices to go through a full logging season, which amounts to the same, before I figure them to be good enough saw users to contemplate using the saw aloft.

BTW,
I'm the "bossman" of my outfit. Does the above make it likely that I'm " a little more concerned about git 'er done than he is about his crew's safety"?

 

[Robert P]

The work we do constantly puts us in situations where only luck and vigilance keeps us from getting hurt.

Can you outline a forinstance where only luck kept you from getting hurt and that you had no other choice than to do it that way?

 

[stig]

This winter we were taking down a line of large cottenwoods.
As we felled one, it pulled a large branch out of the next tree. ( That had broken off in a recent storm and was unattached, mostly. That could not be seen from the ground). My partner looked up as the tree fell and took one quick step to the side. The branch landed where he had been standing, close enough to graze him as it fell.
Luck or vigilance?
Had he looked up a split second later, he would have been killed.

I'm sure there are countless others here who have stories of when unseen defects in a tree have created "by luck only" situations.


I just think you are making light of something that carries a lot of danger with it, and that this attitude means it may well bite you in the ass.
We are trying to prevent that, by advising you to not go into treework blindly.

 

[Robert P]

No, not at all taking it lightly, that's why I'm doing research, asking questions. As I say, I'll see what happens when I actually strap on some gaffs and go from there.

 

[Husabud]

You seem pretty hard headed and want to take the bull by the horns. Just do this, take it low and slow and learn your gear and how it works. Do not spike a tree that is not being removed! When you feel like you are ready take that chainsaw and go to work. Be warned, it is not as easy as we may make it look! One simple slip on your gaff and you may lose a leg or arm. I've got 25 yrs climbing experience and run and own my own business. With that being said, I took a minor slip a yr or so ago and lost most of the skin on too fingers. In hindsight, a different route would have been a better choice. If I was in the middle of a cut, I may have lost an arm. This is no trade to dabble in. Go hang out with a crew or better yet go work for one.

 

[Robert P]

I rarely spike down a tree. Seems like a waste of time and effort you don't need to spend.

When you say "spike down a tree" do you mean cutting down a tree that you've climbed with spikes or getting down from the tree using spikes?

Btw, cool chair.