U-Saver

[bonner1040]

So Tom Hoffman, Oldfart @ the Buzz, made this thing a while ago called the U-Saver. Its basically a Teufelberger Pulley Saver (TPS) with a steel ring in place of the rope loop at the end. WesSpur released a very similar product, the WesSPur Saver (WSS), ART's Rope Guide (ARG) is really the beginning to all of it I guess.

Toms design improved on the TPS by allowing it to be set up with the rope running through the large ring and the pulley in basket mode, thus being able to be set remotely. This is where I got the idea for my remote rigging thing.

Tom has made a bunch of great videos explaining the entire process from construction to implementation that can be found on his you tube channel

I have never consistently used a Friction Saver and have brought up the topic here quite a few times. The last thing I made, with the knotted rope was half arsed and didnt work well. So a couple of weeks ago I ordered up one of those Pinto Rig Pulleys and some 3 strand. I figured if I still cant get on the friction saver wagon I would be able to use the Rig pulley somewhere else. With work and the issues I was having I hadnt had the time to put it all together.

Since I have a bunch of time lately and already had a bunch of rings and other hardware, I threw one together.

I watched Nick Araya's 3 strand splice video, and was finally able to get the 3 strand eye splices down.



I wont go over everything that Tom discusses in far more detail in his videos, but basically you can set it basket or choked. Basket is with the rope running through the ring and the pulley. Choked is with the pulley through the ring choked on the branch and the climbing line just through the pulley. The snap on the end is a retrieval snap used like with the TPS, WSS, or the ARG. Some of the highlights are:

• Can be set and retrieved remotely
• can be choked on a spar and retrieved remotely for working down the stem or choked above a tight crotch.
• adjustable

Anyone use anything similar? Once I am going again I will definitely update on my experiences.

 

[treesmith]

Looks interesting. I'm just getting to where I use a friction saver regularly. I spliced up several ring-and-rings with 3-strand, and I love them. I can see where the pulley would yield even less friction, but I'm satisfied for now with R&Rs. It sure beats natural crotching, as well as being able to set a TIP on vertical stems with no available limbs.

 

[Burnham]

To me, the lack of friction from the pulley is actually a bit of a negative. A ring and ring is smooth enough for me without transfering all of the DRT climbing system's required friction to the hitch alone.

 

[bonner1040]

Looks interesting. I'm just getting to where I use a friction saver regularly. I spliced up several ring-and-rings with 3-strand, and I love them. I can see where the pulley would yield even less friction, but I'm satisfied for now with R&Rs. It sure beats natural crotching, as well as being able to set a TIP on vertical stems with no available limbs.

I had two extra aluminum rings from my Cougar.

I spliced 2 slings with a ring and a tight eye for a biner. I am going to give one to my buddy Billy and keep one myself.

To me, the lack of friction from the pulley is actually a bit of a negative. A ring and ring is smooth enough for me without transfering all of the DRT climbing system's required friction to the hitch alone.

I wondered about that myself.. usually I get the rope so twisted that it probly wont matter though

 

[Burnham]

That's nice. Have you used an adjustable FS, Nick? Cat's pajamas on a clear bole.

 

[treesmith]

I have used an Icetail eye-2-eye to make an adjustable out of mine before. When I'm working a takedown where I'll have to go back up anyway, I simply girth hitch the friction saver around the stem.

 

[bonner1040]

No mostly my experience with them has been, I want to try this, this keeps getting stuck > back to not using one. I have always used tied versions though and the knots just didnt work well.

Hopefully since I put nice splices in this will work out okay.

 

[Burnham]

Stuck they will sometimes get, no matter what. You can ease that somewhat by using your throwline to control the removal.

 

[Burnham]

I have used an Icetail eye-2-eye to make an adjustable out of mine before. When I'm working a takedown where I'll have to go back up anyway, I simply girth hitch the friction saver around the stem.

We should always remember how significantly a girth hitch reduces the strength of cordage. I therefore recommend not using a girthed sling as primary life support, in my classes. I know that without a dynamic fall as part of the scenario it's unlikely to be a problem, but as a general principle, I think it's worth consideration.

 

[bonner1040]

Stuck they will sometimes get, no matter what. You can ease that somewhat by using your throwline to control the removal.

I have practiced doing the throwline controlled removal with my remote rigging thing... It worked well.

We should always remember how significantly a girth hitch reduces the strength of cordage. I therefore recommend not using a girthed sling as primary life support, in my classes. I know that without a dynamic fall as part of the scenario it's unlikely to be a problem, but as a general principle, I think it's worth consideration.

Always a voice of reason.

 

[treesmith]

We should always remember how significantly a girth hitch reduces the strength of cordage. I therefore recommend not using a girthed sling as primary life support, in my classes. I know that without a dynamic fall as part of the scenario it's unlikely to be a problem, but as a general principle, I think it's worth consideration.

I don't understand, B. How can it be any weaker than the FS in single mode? I know it won't be any stronger, but fail to see how it's any weaker.

Just to clarify....I don't mean one end through the other. I mean literally girth hitching the FS around the stem, both ends back through the loop, and climbing line through both rings, as usual.

 

[Burnham]

I understand, Scott. It's weaker just because it is . A girth hitch cuts the rated breaking strength of cordage (as any knot does), but specifically to the girth to the tune of about 50%. A spliced ring and ring FS carries around 90% of the rated breaking strength of the cordage (loss to the splice), if it's deployed around a limb without complications.

The contrast is even more pronounced with loop slings. Girth hitch again reduces strength by half, while a basket hitch increases strength by nearly 100%.

 

[treesmith]

What about a Rope Guide? Does it not girth hitch the pulley through the ring (or eye)? And does the rule you cited ("A girth hitch cuts the rated breaking strength of cordage (as any knot does), but specifically to the girth to the tune of about 50%") apply to all girth hitches, or specifically those where a single strand is girth hitched around something? I promise I'm not trying to be stubborn...I just can't understand the risk when they're selling rope guides and other such stuff that specifically uses girth hitches. To further support my understanding of the issue, WesSpur's ratings on Loopies/Whoopies shows the Loopie as being twice as strong as the Whoopie, with the only reason being that both legs pass through the loop.

Here's what I was referring to....

 

[bonner1040]

I stipulate the GH obviously reduces the strength. To me that reduction, as well as other variables, is what factors in to the required strength ratings. I dont weigh any where near 5000 lbs. While I realize the differences between basket, choked, and other configurations you have to imagine that manufacturers and safety regulators account for the use of a girth hitch. Otherwise you would see big "DO NOT CHOKE' and 'NO GIRTH HITCH' warnings on textile loops.

The girth hitch has been discussed to death in the rock climbing circles and research. People use it every day for all sorts of stuff, including textile to textile.

it is worth noting I have seen 'NO CHOKER' warnings on a textile loop once.

 

[Burnham]

Both you, Scott, and Nick, are generally correct in all you say (though I don't think the Rope Guide uses a girth hitch).

I'll also maintain that I am correct. The girth hitch compromises cordage strength significantly, there is no question of that fact.

If that fact then means in a particular application that reduction constitutes a true hazard...well, some maybe would say yes and some maybe would say no.

The most important thing is to be aware of what you do to the ultimate breaking strength of a product when you chose to girth hitch it. That was really my point, not to say it is an unacceptable practice in all cases. If you read my post closely, I think it will bear that out. "Recommend" is a less than less that absolute term, at least that was my intention.

 

[Adam_P]

I've made a couple u-savers. I def wouldn't use one that wasn't spliced. Way too bulky. Burnham is right about the lack of friction sometimes. I don't like ddrt with the uni on the usaver. I LOVE it with a sj2, though.

For the most part I just use a ring ring because I can set and retrieve from the ground and it's not as heavy. It's easy to soft retrieve a ring/ring.. not so much without some prior planning with a u-saver.

One point worth making is that the u-saver CAN be set from the ground, but once you set it you have to climb to it to set it up for retrieval.

Tom's a real nice guy and real helpful if you hit him up when you're making one.

 

[bonner1040]

If that fact then means in a particular application that reduction constitutes a true hazard...well, some maybe would say yes and some maybe would say no.

The most important thing is to be aware of what you do to the ultimate breaking strength of a product when you chose to girth hitch it.

I think thats the takeaway. If you read back I was with you the whole way.

 

[Burnham]

Yessir, you were.

 

[rangerdanger]

I've heard anywhere from 50 to 60 percent loss when using a girth(or choker hitch as Don Blair calls it), so that much is correct.

The Ropeguide and Pulley saver, when set in a normal manner, do not form a girth hitch, more of a basket style hitch. Unless u pass the prussic the pulley is on all the way through the eye splice or large ring, it's not a girth hitch, at least thats my understanding. Sounds confusing, but I'll try to find a pic.

As for the loopie, loopies are made out of tenex in most cases. The 3/8" tenex I made my loopie from for my dmm rig pulley, is rated for around 5500lbs. In loopie form, doubled up, the loopie has a breaking strength of 11000lbs, since the rope is in effect doubled on itself. This means on a straight pull, or a basket hitch configuration, the loopie will break around 11000lbs. But when used with a girth hitch, it'll break around 5500.

 

[NickfromWI]

I can't believe a girth hitched limb will cause that much of a reduction. I could see how a rope girthed to a skinny biner could cause a big reduction, but think of the bend radius of the limbs we tie into. The girth hitches will have if gentle curves.

Regardless, all components in your systems should be at least 22kN anyway, so even a 50% efficiency loss is still over a 10:1 safety margin.

love
nick

 

[Burnham]

Until you factor in a dynamic load.

The failure point is where the cordage takes a tight bend around both legs, so the diameter of the item in the girth is irrelevant.

 

[NickfromWI]

I will submit that regardless of the bend radius, there is nothing a climber could do to cause ANY damage to a friction saver. The ratio of loads compared to what the ropes can handle is weighted very highly in our favor.

love
nick

 

[Burnham]

A bit too much blanket in that statement for me, Nick. I've seen some pretty light user-made FSs over the years. Nothing you would splice up would be in that category, btw.

 

[Tucker943]

Heck I just use one of those yellow jobs with aluminum rings from sherrill tree. That's if i use one.

 

[Burnham]

You'll never hurt that one, if it's the Buckingham stitched doubled webbing model...just like Nick A. says.