Training

[Old Monkey]

We do a lot of smaller trees where modern hitches are just a waste of time.

 

[stig]

I don't find a VT with a "minder" pulley a waste of time in any size tree, unless you are talking about overgrown bushes, wher you don't have to move around at all.

 

[SkwerI]

Darin, if you can climb a tree where you are using a lifeline and a modern VT hitch is a 'waste of time', then you're doing it wrong. Sorry.

I see so many people tying their VT hitches with an extra 6"-12" of cord between their hitch and the carabiner. By using such a long cord, you are losing most of the benefits of a VT hitch. The entire idea is to have a self tending hitch, and that only works if the cord is as short as possible while still allowing the hitch to release when you pull on the top. Anything longer is reducing the efficiency of the hitch, and creating extra slack between the hitch and the tender pulley. If you're advancing your VT with your hand instead of the tender pulley, you're tying it wrong.

 

[rangerdanger]

I know I'm still a trainee myself, but since Dad and I are the two most experienced guys right now on the crew, it's usually me and him training in the new guys. We start them off on the split tail system w/ Blake's hitch. Handsaws only until they get plenty of experience in the tree.

We teach them the anchor hitch, bowline, running bowline, clove hitch, and the Blakes hitch. We usually use these are the building blocks to other knots if we feel the need to teach them.

Myself, I was trained on the old school system for a few. (around ages 5 to 7 or so) and from there I went to a split tail system. Around 2005, I switched the the distel, and a bit later, the VT.

Also knowing how to use the old school system is great. Many times this summer I've done a quick double crotch with just the end of my climbline. Knowing how and when to use the old school method really saved me having to carry around an extra tail all the time.

 

[Blinky]

Find a really good all around rock climber , keep him on the ground for 3 months.
Then just say sick umm boy...

That definitely works as long as he ain't one of those lycra wearing, indoor wall sissies.

 

[Blinky]

Darin, if you can climb a tree where you are using a lifeline and a modern VT hitch is a 'waste of time', then you're doing it wrong. Sorry.

I see so many people tying their VT hitches with an extra 6"-12" of cord between their hitch and the carabiner. By using such a long cord, you are losing most of the benefits of a VT hitch. The entire idea is to have a self tending hitch, and that only works if the cord is as short as possible while still allowing the hitch to release when you pull on the top. Anything longer is reducing the efficiency of the hitch, and creating extra slack between the hitch and the tender pulley. If you're advancing your VT with your hand instead of the tender pulley, you're tying it wrong.

I agree, a 28" split-tail is too long for a VT. I like mine short, about 22".

 

[squisher]

That definitely works as long as he ain't one of those lycra wearing, indoor wall sissies.

Also might help if they've run a saw before too I'd say. I wouldn't just turn someone loose in a tree with a saw until they'd proven themselves adept in the art of cutting no matter how comfortable they seemed at heights.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

That definitely works as long as he ain't one of those lycra wearing, indoor wall sissies.

I LOVE IT!

 

[woodworkingboy]

Interesting thread. Big turnover of workers in the tree working industry, I assume that also applies to climbers? If so, in addition to the technical stuff, the current systems of training are inefficient in educating on the benefits of remaining a tree worker. It would seem that teachers have some responsibility in providing education in that regard as well. Lesser importance in teaching someone who has the "greener pastures" thoughts creeping in.

 

[rangerdanger]

Find a really good all around rock climber , keep him on the ground for 3 months.
Then just say sick umm boy...

My Dad said he's had a few problems with some rock climbers when he worked in the Grand Canyon. Said they got freaked out since the trees moved and how their used to the solid rock.

 

[rangerdanger]

I agree, a 28" split-tail is too long for a VT. I like mine short, about 22".

Isn't that a bit short. I tie mine with a 30" tail I think. I use 10mm Bee Line, 3 wrap/3 crosses. Seems like a 30" is just right for it. Anything shorter would be a struggle it seems to tie it.

 

[SkwerI]

22" is about right for 8mm cord. With 10mm cord I make mine about 24.5".

Again, you want it as short as possible yet still able to release. If there's 3" of cord between your carabiner and the first cross of your VT then you might try shortening it a couple inches.

oops, sorry for the derail. Back to our regularly scheduled thread.

 

[DMc]

Good topic for a post, Greg. Most of what I have done that involved training of new climbers was quite awhile ago. And of course, everything at that time WAS old school. Though we used the most modern equipment available to us at the time.

My experiences mirrored other posters in regards that some took to it naturally and others took quite awhile. What seemed consistent was how long it took a climber to be truly efficient and a well-rounded climber. If memory serves, some of the good ones were fully functional in 3 years, others took as many as 5 years. This was with day-in, day-out supervised conditions. I tried not to breathe down their necks but we would often climb together, which would allow me to point out a mistake before it could become dangerous.

I love all the new gear and techniques. I am currently climbing with the Unicender and working the tree entirely with SRT. Quite a novel experience.

More recently I have been teaching my wife different climbing methods, more to develop a well rounded knowledge of what is going on in the climbing aspect of the business rather than a desire on her part to be a full time climber. Though I have introduced some new gear and techniques to her, she seems most comfortable with a simple tail-tied blakes hitch, saddle and rope setup. I think one of the reasons here is that it allows her to focus on other aspects of the climbing, not just her gear. And it is not being demanded of her to do production work which would prove to be quite exhausting.

There is so much going on within the tree while we are working it, climbing is just a portion of that. The quicker new climbers can lose the fear of falling and trust their equipment, the easier it will be for them to learn why they are in the tree and how to accomplish their goals.

Dave

 

[Blinky]

My Dad said he's had a few problems with some rock climbers when he worked in the Grand Canyon. Said they got freaked out since the trees moved and how their used to the solid rock.

Were they wearing lycra?

Most experienced climbers have been exposed in high wind of the sort a tree climber wouldn't touch. I do know of some sport climbers who couldn't bring themselves to walking on limbs, they would scrunch out a little ways by straddling but never went far... and that was just hanging Christmas lights.

I don't actually think all rock climbers would make good tree climbers but the real ones aren't bothered by heights and fall exposure which is what most climbers have to deal with mentally before they ever make a cut.

Getting used to saws is another story... and then there's high voltage lines. Tree climbing isn't for just anybody.

I guess I'm not up to training climbers.
I'm teaching my son but I'm afraid of introducing anybody else to it. If they got hurt I wouldn't deal with it very well. I trust my son to keep himself safe because I know him and I know how he makes decisions.

 

[klimbinfool]

Interesting to see the different opinions. looks like old school out weighs new school so far.Why do you think those who train teach old school first? do you think it's because of the fundamentals and basics? or is it because, thats what we were taught.Mom used Tide when growing up, therefore it must be good and so will I.

There are many benifits to both sides of teaching and down falls. IE. My son who was a junior last year, was in the top of his class in mechanical engineering ( drawing) and helps teach the class. But I never saw him doing any of it at home. So I asked him wheres your T square, 30, 45 90 deg. angles and compass etc. where. He said " What? we do it all on computer". Bottom line was , he couldnt draw it out on paper if he had to. This is modern tech. for you if the power goes out and he cant use his comp. Shit outa luck and his whole world collapses. Of course this goes for the old drafter as well trying to keep up with those who have cad systems.

Over the years I have learned to walk the line between old and new when teaching However, no matter where you start the training, if taught right, there is always one constant and that is basics.Everything we do in tree work revolves around basics.Leave that equation out of the picture and you will reach a short plateau in climbing and have those ruff days more often than not. Sometimes we over think because of all the modern gear we have out there, when in reality it's as easy as 1 2 3.

Thanks for your input

Greg

 

[CurSedVoyce]

One of the things that I really appreciate from the members of this forum is the training I get daily. The diversity of climb styles, accumulation of knowledge and experience, knowledge of the new and old systems and the ability and openness to share all of what you all have learned and know is an incredible learning tool. If I could be taught locally I would like to have several teachers as I have here in this Bother/Sister hood. The diversity and experience from many with the afore said, I feel, would be a much more learned experience. So often the different styles and systems people use, and I learn, come in VERY handy in being a working climber. There is no "set" way of doing things.. But there is "safe" and "efficient". You have to be able to adapt to the situation at hand. The more you have in your goody bag of learned things, the better a climber you will be IMHO.
I want to teach someone someday and I want to teach them in an open minded way. What works for one.... But also, what may work in different circumstances.
I hope I too will be come a good teacher someday
Thank you for all you have given..
Sorry if I derailed anything..

BTW I believe in a balance of old school and new.. You really need to know where it all came from ....

 

[Blinky]

Isn't that a bit short. I tie mine with a 30" tail I think. I use 10mm Bee Line, 3 wrap/3 crosses. Seems like a 30" is just right for it. Anything shorter would be a struggle it seems to tie it.

I use 8mm HRC or Beeline 3 over 2. Works great on Velocity. With PI I use 3/8" icetail (double thickness) and it's a little longer. 30" would be way too long for me. It depends on how you set up the fairlead. I put the pulley right on the biner.

 

[Blinky]

Oh jesus Cursed, MB's gonna pull out the group hug picture again.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Sorry Chip.....

I love you mang!

 

[MasterBlaster]

I love this crazy gig I've got.

 

[MasterBlaster]

One of the things that I really appreciate from the members of this forum is the training I get daily. The diversity of climb styles, accumulation of knowledge and experience, knowledge of the new and old systems and the ability and openness to share all of what you all have learned and know is an incredible learning tool. If I could be taught locally I would like to have several teachers as I have here in this Bother/Sister hood.

Thanks, buddy.

 

[Old Monkey]

Darin, if you can climb a tree where you are using a lifeline and a modern VT hitch is a 'waste of time', then you're doing it wrong. Sorry.

I see so many people tying their VT hitches with an extra 6"-12" of cord between their hitch and the carabiner. By using such a long cord, you are losing most of the benefits of a VT hitch. The entire idea is to have a self tending hitch, and that only works if the cord is as short as possible while still allowing the hitch to release when you pull on the top. Anything longer is reducing the efficiency of the hitch, and creating extra slack between the hitch and the tender pulley. If you're advancing your VT with your hand instead of the tender pulley, you're tying it wrong.

Perhaps my cord is too long but I have been using a vt with a hitch climber for a bit now and I like it better ascending but not when climbing out the side of a branch, leaning against my climb line. There are things it does better and things it doesn't IMO.

 

[stehansen]

Do you teach the old school way so that the students will have a method to use if they have minimal equipment?

 

[rumination]

Do you teach the old school way so that the students will have a method to use if they have minimal equipment?

I would think that's the main reason. As soon as they understand the concept and can tie a Blake's with their eyes closed I would quickly move them on to whatever will be most productive for their situation.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Much ado about 'nutting.

But! Ain't that teh interwebs!