Burnham
Woods walker
Sad tale, Gary. Bummer of the first order.
Fix it and move on, what else is a man to do?
Fix it and move on, what else is a man to do?
Project Muscle Truck (again!)
- Thread starter GASoline71
- Start date
- Replies 461
- Views 48K
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #277
Damage was a little worse than I initially thought. 
Pulled the engine out on Thursday... complete tear down. Headed over to the machine shop later today to see what is saveable and what is junk...
Seemed weird to pull a super clean engine with less than 100 miles on it out of a vehicle...
Gary
Pulled the engine out on Thursday... complete tear down. Headed over to the machine shop later today to see what is saveable and what is junk...
Seemed weird to pull a super clean engine with less than 100 miles on it out of a vehicle...
Gary
Al Smith
Mac Daddy
I just caught this myself .Don't feel pregnant ,it happened to me once on a four bolt 350 . I had failed to finish torquing one of the rods . Since that happened I have always marked them with a felt pen .
Chit happens ,lick your wounds and go on . People that don't screw up are the ones that don't do anything .The rest of us run into these rocks in the river every so often .
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #279
Yep... I am trudging forward Al... the block and main caps are okay... the rods are okay... the crank, cam, and lifters are shot.
Cylinder heads are okay too... but I need to have the block hot tanked (or baked), new cam bearings, and new oil gallery plugs, and new soft plugs installed.
I will have the Machine Shop do the cam bearings... I can install the plugs.
Gary
Cylinder heads are okay too... but I need to have the block hot tanked (or baked), new cam bearings, and new oil gallery plugs, and new soft plugs installed.
I will have the Machine Shop do the cam bearings... I can install the plugs.
Gary
SkwerI
Treehouser
OK, you say the crank, cam and lifters are shot. How, exactly? Have you got any ideas as to what happened? 'Shot' as in bent and broken, or scored? Was it a lubrication issue?
J
Jonseredbred
Guest
Sounds like a wierd blow up?
Al Smith
Mac Daddy
A lot of thngs could have happened ,like a plugged oil galley . Usually if a small block throws a rod it will snap the cam and usually break the bottom out of the cylinder where that failure occurs but not every time .
Did it toss a rod bearing or spin it ?
Tanking the block should assure all the oil passages are clear ,good idea .It's also a good idea to have the shop install the cam bearing because they are a beech if you don't have the correct driver .
I haven't done a rebuild in years but when I did all the parts were slavered heavy with STP .If it didn't blow smoke for ten minutes after start up I worried I didn't use enough .
Did it toss a rod bearing or spin it ?
Tanking the block should assure all the oil passages are clear ,good idea .It's also a good idea to have the shop install the cam bearing because they are a beech if you don't have the correct driver .
I haven't done a rebuild in years but when I did all the parts were slavered heavy with STP .If it didn't blow smoke for ten minutes after start up I worried I didn't use enough .
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #283
Scored... bad. #1 & #2 rod journal had 1/16" ridge where #1 rod bearing spun...
What was figured to have happened was that the camshaft and lifters were failing during initial break-in due to lack of lubrication. Which in turn put a lot of trash in the oil which clogged up the oil pump. Oil pump no pumpy... bad ju-ju.
I used a different type of cam and lifter lube for this rebuild. One I have never used before. It was not some cheapy alternative stuff either. However when I contacted said manufacturer of lubricant... they have so many stipulations on what is done during the break-in prodedure, they basically cover their own ass for any type of failure.
Anyways... I'm not sure if any of you guys are aware of this but over the last 10 years, oil manufacturers have reduced the amount of zinc in motor oils. Mainly because the big 3 were bitchin' about the zinc causing problems with the newer more stringent emissions laws. They founded studies that said that the zinc was messing with O2 sensors, and catalytic converters. So they oil companies have slowly been taking zinc out of the oils... even diesel oils.
There is still zinc in the oils... just at an extremely low ratio. What does this mean in laymans terms? for newer engines it means nothing... because the newer engines are made with this in mind. What it means for older engines like mine... is that the zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) that used to be in oils to lubricate the flat tappet camshaft and lifters is not enough to maintain proper lubrication. So you have to take extra special precautions during engine rebuilds, and add additives to the oil at every oil change. General Motors, Ford, MOPAR, and some of the big name camshaft manufacturers all make the oil additives to run in older vehilcles.
A simple (but expensive) way to go about it... is to not use a flat tappet cam and lifter setup... going to a full roller cam and lifter setup would mean you don't have to worrry about the friction between the cam and tappet causing excessive wear since there is a roller there in stead of a flat tappet. However you are gonna be over $400 bucks into a roller setup. Hindsight being 20/20 I prolly should just save the money and do a full roller deal... but it's not an option right now.
So if any of you are driving older vehicles (Like pre-1990 or so) without roller cams and lifters... you ought to start looking into the ZDDP oil additives...
Sorry for the long winded post... but I figured i might as well explain it the best I could.
Gary
What was figured to have happened was that the camshaft and lifters were failing during initial break-in due to lack of lubrication. Which in turn put a lot of trash in the oil which clogged up the oil pump. Oil pump no pumpy... bad ju-ju.
I used a different type of cam and lifter lube for this rebuild. One I have never used before. It was not some cheapy alternative stuff either. However when I contacted said manufacturer of lubricant... they have so many stipulations on what is done during the break-in prodedure, they basically cover their own ass for any type of failure.
Anyways... I'm not sure if any of you guys are aware of this but over the last 10 years, oil manufacturers have reduced the amount of zinc in motor oils. Mainly because the big 3 were bitchin' about the zinc causing problems with the newer more stringent emissions laws. They founded studies that said that the zinc was messing with O2 sensors, and catalytic converters. So they oil companies have slowly been taking zinc out of the oils... even diesel oils.
There is still zinc in the oils... just at an extremely low ratio. What does this mean in laymans terms? for newer engines it means nothing... because the newer engines are made with this in mind. What it means for older engines like mine... is that the zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) that used to be in oils to lubricate the flat tappet camshaft and lifters is not enough to maintain proper lubrication. So you have to take extra special precautions during engine rebuilds, and add additives to the oil at every oil change. General Motors, Ford, MOPAR, and some of the big name camshaft manufacturers all make the oil additives to run in older vehilcles.
A simple (but expensive) way to go about it... is to not use a flat tappet cam and lifter setup... going to a full roller cam and lifter setup would mean you don't have to worrry about the friction between the cam and tappet causing excessive wear since there is a roller there in stead of a flat tappet. However you are gonna be over $400 bucks into a roller setup. Hindsight being 20/20 I prolly should just save the money and do a full roller deal... but it's not an option right now.
So if any of you are driving older vehicles (Like pre-1990 or so) without roller cams and lifters... you ought to start looking into the ZDDP oil additives...
Sorry for the long winded post... but I figured i might as well explain it the best I could.
Gary
Al Smith
Mac Daddy
After thought .If that thing had a cast crank another thing could have happened .If they spun the crank in the wrong direction while grinding it will cause the fibers to form burrs .So small you can't see them .These little microscopic things will eat right through the babbit in the bearing shells .
To properly grind a crank it must be final lapped using fine lapping paper .Just a pass over a stone doesn't cut it ,no good ,it will fail . To test for burs ,rub a penny over the crank throws .If it pulls copper it has burrs . Engine building trivia 101 .
While I'm rambling ,a crankshaft is not the type cast iron most think it is .It is in fact nodular iron ,some call it "semi steel " .It machines entirely different that grey cast . This stuff will pull a semi chip if machined under great pressure and cutting speeds .It in essence pulls the carbides from the metal where they form exremely hard chips .Unlike regular cast which just forms powder about like coal dust . These carbide like materials are what cause the burrs .Machining trivia 101 .
To properly grind a crank it must be final lapped using fine lapping paper .Just a pass over a stone doesn't cut it ,no good ,it will fail . To test for burs ,rub a penny over the crank throws .If it pulls copper it has burrs . Engine building trivia 101 .
While I'm rambling ,a crankshaft is not the type cast iron most think it is .It is in fact nodular iron ,some call it "semi steel " .It machines entirely different that grey cast . This stuff will pull a semi chip if machined under great pressure and cutting speeds .It in essence pulls the carbides from the metal where they form exremely hard chips .Unlike regular cast which just forms powder about like coal dust . These carbide like materials are what cause the burrs .Machining trivia 101 .
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #285
Just a stock cast iron crank Al... I believe they are the Nodular Iron...
Gary
Gary
F
fishhuntcutwood
Guest
Dangit Gary. Keep us apprised brother.
Al Smith
Mac Daddy
Here is something else to ponder .Most older engines were set for 2.5-3.5 thou clearence on the mains/rods and ran 10w-30 oil . If somebody decided to regrind a precision fit for about a thou clearence like these newer engines ,not good .That is so tight you have to run 5w -20 or you won't pump the oil .
Another thing ,good oil pressure is of course always optimum .You get too much pressure on that tight of clearance it can "wash " the babbit right off the shells .Sounds odd maybe to most but it can and has happened although it usually takes more than a couple hundred miles .
All this info came from dear old departed Dad .He was engaged in auto engine research for years in his job and had seen it all .
Another thing ,good oil pressure is of course always optimum .You get too much pressure on that tight of clearance it can "wash " the babbit right off the shells .Sounds odd maybe to most but it can and has happened although it usually takes more than a couple hundred miles .
All this info came from dear old departed Dad .He was engaged in auto engine research for years in his job and had seen it all .
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #288
Just so you guys know... I'm still pluggin' away at the truck... Should have the engine back in soon. Just a bad time of year with Xmas here and all...
Gary
Gary
SkwerI
Treehouser
You must have been reading my mind. I was just thinking about your truck 2 minutes ago. 
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #290
Great likes think a mind!!! 
Gary
Gary
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #291
FINALLY!!! It warmed up around here to about 45 degrees, so I went out in the shop over the weekend and bolted everything up... and fired the truck up again.
Broke it in, and now have to get it on the road to seat the rings... No troubles so far. Seeing that I triple checked everything this time... but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed.
Man this has been one hell of an ordeal. Anyways... just thought I would post the progress...
Gary
Broke it in, and now have to get it on the road to seat the rings... No troubles so far. Seeing that I triple checked everything this time... but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed.
Man this has been one hell of an ordeal. Anyways... just thought I would post the progress...
Gary
SkwerI
Treehouser
Glad to hear about it, Gary. 
How long until you show video of some burnouts?
How long until you show video of some burnouts? 
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Good to hear, Gary! Get that sucker rolling!
F
fishhuntcutwood
Guest
SU-WHEAT!!!
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #295
Glad to hear about it, Gary.
It has an open diff so only one wheel spins... kinda embarrasing... so when I get the posi-traction or locker in the rear... I will post up some vids...
That will be in the spring...
Gary
Paul B
I dig hammocks.
You can still do a smoke show, just make sure you are the cool looking side of the truck when you take a pic
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #297
LMAO... Good idear Paully!!!
Gary
Gary
Paul B
I dig hammocks.
I had a 75 firebird that was a one wheel wanderer back in the day 
before I got my posi Z28.
before I got my posi Z28.
GASoline71
'cause chicks dig scars
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #299
Paul B
I dig hammocks.
ha! All you need now is a new shifter knob!
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