Get a written contract--rant warning

SouthSoundTree

Treehouser
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
5,958
Location
Olympia, WA
So I was reminded that there are selfish, self-serving lying people that will cheat and steal from people that have repeatedly helped them.

I know such a guy, "A" who lived about a quarter mile from me until last week. I helped him on a number of jobs last year, in exchange for some help on some of my jobs. Not really and apple to apples trade, but I knew he worked hard to try to support his kids, so I did it anyway.

"A" needed help on a number of slightly tougher than basic tree removals in tight places, some spreading trees, some that required some essentially basic rigging in my mind, some backleaning trees.

"A" always spikes prunes, didn't know the difference between a flush cut and proper collar cut, basically only climbs with a lanyard and works very non-ergonomically, stressed to the bejesus that he is going to cut himself out of the tree and fall to his death. Rockstars all day and Bud Light all night.

If it weren't for "A" having kids at home, I'd have ignored him mostly. Call me a sucker.

I'd given "A" some online resources such as Sherrilltree's learning center, as he did things, as he put it "logger style", making up descending techniques, such as using a clove hitch sorta in place of a Blake's hitch. He used a micro pulley for rigging, not knowing the difference between that and a rescue pulley or block, etc, etc. I gave him a hitch cord and figure 8, etc. Showed him how to speedline, MA, etc while doing climbing work for him. He didn't know but a few knots. In retrospect, he was probably too hung over to pick any of it up.

So in December "A" said that he was behind on bills and rent, and needed to get some jobs done quickly to not get kicked out of his house or whatever. Could I help him and he could help me, trading days? I told him to that if he wanted my employee to work with him, he would have to pay him directly, and I'd be willing to trade him day-for-day.

So its July now. I haven't got a written contract of our agreement, "A" has moved out of his rental house. I have to either try to track him down and go to small claims court over it, without anything in writing or just write it off 2.5 days of work. He hasn't paid my employee for three days of work, as he arranged with my employee either. I clearly told them both that whatever they wanted to work out between them was fine by me, and I wasn't employing my employee to work for this other guy.

In talking to "J",a newly into business for himself treeworker in town, I find out that supposedly arborists only consult but don't do any "hands on work" for lack of a better description. The thief "A" doesn't even know me. Scammer-man has had his business license revoked for Worker's Comp Fraud. He's driving his CDL bucket truck without a CDL, so that means he is not insured. I wonder if he even has general liability insurance. When the city showed up to the commercial site inquiring about permitting ("A" told "J" that no permits were required because the trees being removed were "hazard trees", showing either that he didn't know what he was talking about or was just again lying). "A" wanted "J" to give the city worker his business license and insurance.

"J" said that he "almost had to beat his money out of "A" ", after doing the crane work on the "hazard tree" removals.

"J" also said that "A" dropped a 40' top out of a 60' tree taking out a utility line. Probably doesn't have the insurance to cover it.




So I guess there is a lot to be said about having a written contract with a licensed, bonded, insurance company, and not being a sucker because of somebody having kids (almost assuredly from what I know if it, he just couldn't manage his reproduction either). Follow your gut people!
 
I've been through that scenario a thousand times due to the fact that I freelance for a living. Call me a hardass but I keep the less financially secure tree guys on a very short leash. On the other hand, you're not going to get blood out of a turnip and the only person stressing out over this is you. It's a couple days labor, not thousands of dollars. I have one guy who has owed me $800 for a couple months now but I'm not sweating it. If he pays me, fine. If not, then he's lost more than I have. He will need me again long before I ever need him.

And screw the 'contract', you're dealing with tree guys here. If a man's word isn't any good then a piece of paper isn't going to help.
 
Chalk it up as a lesson learned. Not sure what the lesson is, but I'd just consider it money that I'll never see again.

Actually, I'd hunt him down and at least pop his tires!

love
nick
 
Just a lesson learned, Sean. That $$ is gone. Putting any additional effort into this situation is just costing you more.
 
What do you expect? He drinks Bud Lite........bound to be a 'see you next Tuesday.' I agree with Paul, shame you just can't give him a good hiding. And Nick, what sort of soppy, girly shite is that? Pop his tyres...:lol: Don't pop his tyres, bash the living f**k outta him! It's all some people understand......
 
Presumably you considered 'A' a friend, so you helped him out. He screwed you around about it, and probably is now in worse straights than before. Not to excuse his behavior, but I think you have to suck it up and eat the loss. Feeling somewhat bitter goes along with it. Also, since you established the connection with him for your employee (it seems), and no matter what was said about the responsibility to pay, I feel that it would be your best position to make sure the guy pays up or pay the employee yourself. Making connections or giving introductions aren't something that should be taken lightly, along with it goes some responsibility. Learned that in a place where making connections between other people is a very big thing, and someone who set up a bad one is often held in a similar disregard as the person who corrupted the arrangement. I guess there is some historical context for it being that way. I realize it may be different in your neighborhood, but being righteous seems more a universal thing. Hope the guy pays up to save the hassle. Just my 2.
 
Four words; Moth balls gas tank. Then pay your man for his time , chalk it up to shiite happens and move on. I've been put in too many problems to count and it sucks but in the end it is all water under the bridge. Be happy your ins wasn't needed or that you got audited for his slack ass ways. That has cost me bundles. Hence, Don't Trust Anyone!
 
Yeah: I'm with Limey about the Bud Lite thing. Never trust those guys! I'm a Monster/Miller Low Life man myself.
 
Slap the shit outta him in front of his famly and friends and be done with him. Leave his poor ride alone!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
Money's gone. Feuds have started with revenge. Not worth doing anything, but believe me, its crossed my mind. I would expect at the least that my advertising sign would be damaged that is near the highway, as it is an easy drive-by target, and my stuff would be a lot less secure at home. Anything happening at home would make my wife super anxious, and she doesn't need any help in that department. I would loose sleep over from my own concern about our easily accessed property, as well as her anxiety. I left out the detail of the debt to her, just told her I found out conclusively that the guy is a scumbag.

As for paying my employee, I haven't come to any conclusions, but have thought maybe meeting him halfway would be reasonable, as I clearly made it no obligation to him to work for "A", just an opportunity to work while we were slow around Christmas. He made the decision. He's a good employee.

I've also giving him lots of opportunity to work at my property when we haven't had tree jobs, and he's passed. If he were strapped for money, I would approach it very differently. I want him to be happy. And at the same time, he's 28 Y.O., not 18 and d-u-m.

If he was operating legally, legal recourse would be much easier, but I come to find out he isn't.

A lesson learned, and my hope it that others who haven't had to learn this the hard way will be able to take something away from it the easy way.

Kinda like how an honest person has nothing to hide, if someone I deal with wanted a contract from me, I have ZERO problem giving it to them. One other contractor that I deal with is a person that I know I will never have to have a written contract from, nor ever worry about getting overcharged for anything. He's a good person to know, and people like that help to hold some of my faith in most people being pretty honest.
 
Actually I doubt it matters if he was operating legally or not, if your employee goes to the state they will make it hard on the illegal contractor. I don't think you owe the employee the wages
 
Just curious, did the employee have any relation to the scumbag before working for him came up? How was the job initiated? I think that Sean is a smart guy and has good judgement about it, and wants to be fair, but I also don't think that making it an obligation or not has anything to do with it. It's not cool to set up an arrangement with someone to get involved with a snook, even if the best of intentions are what prompted it and the true colors weren't known. How that part gets sorted out between himself (Sean) and the employee is between them, and the relationship might not require a full reimbursement or any at all, if it is on the table and the right gestures have been made, and then possibly declined. Basically though, I disagree with Willy's flat out statement about the remuneration. It's a moral question about honor, imo.....perhaps via the code of the samurai.
 
I hear what you're saying Jay. But imo, if a lead was given with the disclosure beforehand that it's between themselves to finger out pay, than that's between them.

The employee who has alot less to lose presumably, he should start the feud.:drink:

I've never taken to not being paid, by anyone ever. An accord is an accord.

I'd be atleast informing this scumbag guy of his indebtedness. I'd be letting him know not to come around unless it's to pay up.
 
That is a straight forward way to look at it, Squish, and let other people fight their own battles, so to speak, sure is validity in that. I think I'm coming from a little different place about it, and it may not apply to other neighborhoods. In these parts, when someone gives an introduction, there is also something implied with it, the person who sets it up then becomes the overseer of the arrangement, a certain responsibility goes along with it, if things don't turn out as expected. It may not be spelled out exactly what that all entails, but something tangible lingers. The other side of it is that in getting an introduction, either party has a certain sense of duty to fulfill the expectation of the person who arranged it. it becomes more than say just the two individuals involved. Some honor system that goes way back, alliances were once big here, to the point of life and death. Folks still use the introduction thing in a big way as a certain form of security between unknown parties, it carries a lot of weight. There are still certain areas of society that you can't get into without an introduction, even with all the other qualifications in order.
 
The employee is liable for his own money on his own sidejob.
I wouldn't pay him.

Lesson learned is derilects have kids too, don't feel sorry for them because they have kids.
Dirty hippies with puppies and kids trying to get change at the supermarket.

I like Butch's take, leave the car alone..... it didn't do anything. hahha.
 
I like where Skwishey is coming from. Maybe even suggest to the employee ideas on how and where to extract his money out of the dirtbag. Then sit back and wait . :/:
 
One of the ways the old gangs started was them being needed to collect money from dirtbags. I think they take about fifty percent now. The dirtbag pooping in his pants is worth something, though.
 
Friend of mine just lost $300 to the HO saying the price was different than he said.
People are Shysters at times. If someone can get over on you they will.

Saying that, I'm mainly a word of mouth and Handshake kinda contractor.
 
Back
Top