Training

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learning the spurs is one thing and then mastering them is another thing all together. Truly the spurs requires a feel that extends from the tip of the point through the nerves in your foot and leg all the way to your brain to know how well it is set in any kind of wood or bark, rot or punk, crevice or slab.

Spur and flip line climbing totally rocks because it requires not only the feel, but true grit and stamina too. There's a lot of so called climbers out there that just can not handle the rigger and demand of spiking up 200 feet plus to limb a tree, top it out, and chunk it down totally out of the spurs.

All that said,, today rope climbing techniques have extended my climbing career tremendously. It is without a doubt a lot less painful.

They each have their place.
 
Gerry really said it there... They each have their place and being on rope is huge for taking the brunt of the work off the climber. A lot less painful ... Any doubt's, get an old Klein belt (no leg straps or bosom)... a flip line and a set of spurs a do a 100 + foot climb just for shits and giggles... Now add a saw to the belt... You get the picture...
TG for being on rope with the newer tools we have now ;) I really do think that being on spikes is becoming a lost art with all the emphasis of not using spurs save for TD. Both should surely be mastered by the climber and melded together. Just my .02
 
This is great read. I had to kind of set back think for a minute about the collective wisdom in the last 17 posts!

I was a rock climber first and to this day favor a good pair of shoes over spikes. I still use'm on most TDs but I'm not good with'em. I watch guys fly up trees in spikes and I'm just barely moseying. I can do it all day but at not even half the production rate.

I'll be in trouble when I get old, I think.
 
I now start a new climber out on a rope doing easy prunes, handsaw only. Spur climbing now, means a guy is doing a removal,which means constant use of a chainsaw aloft.
That's not an ideal starting point for someone when they are learning how to safely and productively move in a tree. I think it's better if the trainee has some comfort and understanding of how to use the lifeline first. Then I've seen a faster progression when working on spurs.

I totally agree except I will have guys who want to climb set ropes in spars w/ spurs/lanyard and spur back down (company requires anything over 5" dbh has rope in it before it gets dropped):roll:.

MB, thanks for the nice picture thingy (not up on my 'puter lingo)
 
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yes, 5". someone got hurt and now everyone is scared it seems. We were also told height is not the issue. I don't agree with this I am just expected to enforce it.:what:

Guess it all comes with working for someone else.....do it their way.....:|:
 
I'm with starting with basics first. Simplicy, simplicy, simplicity!, as Thoreau said.

Speaking of minimalist systems, I can remember when Dr. Dennis Ryan at UMASS Amherst used to make everybody, whether experienced at climbing or not, make their saddle out of their climbing line and hump it up the trees. Make your throwing knot, get your line set, set up your saddle with a bowline on a bight, set your tautline, and up ya go! :)
 
Watch as someone gaffs themselves on a 5 inch pole... I am so thankful to be self employed.

When I start guys w/spikes it is usually on 12-20" dbh. That seems to be where they have the best luck staying solidly on the spar yet away from their other foot and also being able to find a balance w/lanyard.

If you have any suggestions as to a better way to get them started I am most certainly ready to listen. I am hear because I want to learn more, and if you can help me keep my guys safer, then I am very thankful.
 
I am really the last guy to ask.. but... 24 dbh is prime for training for me... But I feel everyone is different in comfort levels.. You pointed out two main factors so I feel you are on the right track with the spurs... Climber solid to the spar and finding a balance on the flip line. As they advance... then larger DBH amd smaller DBH.
Most the other guys here are much more experienced than I.. In fact I can safely say some of them have probably forgotten more than I already know ;) You're in the right place for gathering a plethora of knowledge Fiddler :)
 
I am pretty sure the last thing you want to show a just starting climber is a micro pulley or ascender. The next thing you know they will have about ten slings, pulleys, and what have yous hanging off of their 5oo dollar harness. Let them see a catalog and its all over. Keeping it simple is a great way to see the direction their tendencies will lean.:)
 
Do you start with older style climbing? Do you jump right into high tech? Do you mix and match? and how did you learn.What do you feel is the most important part of training? Etc.

Thanks
Greg

I'm going to try to actually answer Greg's question rather than meander off on a tangent like I did in my other post :).

Much of what I have to say will be colored by the fact that in my work, "arborist" activities are uncommon. Only a small minority of FS climbers do hazard reductions or removals, rigging, or chainsaw work aloft. Pruning to take out deadwood, or for aesthetic reasons?...almost unheard of.

Not because we don't have the skills, but rather because the bulk of our work is in a different arena. The phrase "natural resource management climbing" has been coined for the general scope of it. We need to access tree boles and canopies to harvest cones and grafting scion, to survey for species of interest, to perform a wide variety of wildlife habitat enhancement activities, to do a ever-expanding range of basic research to explore how the forest canopy environment and the plants and animals that live there works, and even installation of solar panels and comm system antennas in support of research activities or firefighting.

So our instruction and certification for beginning climbers does not include much of what y'all consider the bread and butter of tree climbing work.

I've been certified as a Forest Service climbing instructor since 1990, and been training instructors only a few years less. Well before I got started as a climber, USFS Region 6 (Oregon and Washington) was ground zero for establishment of a formal training and certification/recertification program for tree climbers. R5 (California) was not all that far behind. Since 2000, the R6 protocol has been taken Service-wide.

As you might imagine, in the early days FS climbing was based on practices common in the logging industry...you can call that not just old school, but maybe even pre-historic.

We got better. We continue to get better. Some of us are right up there with cutting edge technology in treeclimbing. A few, like me, have been in the biz long enough, kept climbing and with enough curiosity to keep abreast, yet still have all the old school background that younger climbers and instructors today may lack. I've been lucky...by chance and by chasing it, I've been involved in as wide a spectrum of treeclimbing work as any FS climber I've run across.

Today, my coursework as an instructor runs 5 full days for a class of 4, to teach the full scope that I am certified to offer. In that time I can produce climbers who are generally competent to safely perform "natural resource management climbing"...not usually at a high degree of efficiency, for that takes far more in-tree time to develop, but climbers I am comfortable certifying for the work.

I think my basic answer to Greg's question is, I mix old school and new together, generally in a progression for each module I cover; i.e. for lanyards/fliplines, I demo a Becket hitch, then a mechanical cam adjuster, then a friction hitch w/ slack-tender. The students have to show me competence in setting up and using all three systems. In general, they pretty quickly decide their personal favorite and use that thereafter for the course of the workshop.

For friction hitch climbing, aka DbRT, I demo what I consider a basic system, Blake's hitch tied in the tail of the climb line, using a biner for the harness attachment. The students learn that, then I move directly to a split tail. That is an easy transition, generally. Then I introduce slack tender setups, a couple of varieties. Then advanced hitches, maybe two or three at most, but settling on one for the students to learn (I vary that depending on what I'm interested in at the time :)). Then I add footlocking the tail, and finally the Pantin. Again, the students pretty quickly pick up one system that they prefer and work with that for the rest of the workshop.

In both the above examples, I don't insist on any one particular system, but I will push students to experiment if I feel they are narrowing in too quickly.

Enough!! And you thought you were rambling on too much, Greg...no way, I am the master!
 
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ya got me beat Burham....lol...thankyou for your insight!
 
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