Training

[klimbinfool]

Ok, sounds like I need to make a post. So I gave it some thought and I'm sure this has been talked about before.

I have done my fare share of training over the years from large groups to individuals and have my own philosphy on how to bring up climbers. However, I would like to hear what you folks do and why. Do you start with older style climbing? Do you jump right into high tech? Do you mix and match? and how did you learn.What do you feel is the most important part of training? Etc.

Thanks
Greg

 

[MasterBlaster]

Discipline.

 

[NeTree]

I prefer to start off teaching old school; it gives 'em a real appreciation when they get to the new school stuff, and should the need arise, the skills to still be able to do old school.

 

[klimbinfool]

What happens if they sem to be struggling with old school?

 

[Frans]

Man what a great question!
I have seen pretty much identical results from both styles of climbing so I don't have a good answer for you.

What I do know for sure is that it really depends on the person. What they do with the training. Some seem to choke on certain aspects of tree work and excell at others.
But it sure is rare to find a climber who is competent at all phases/types of tree work.

 

[Knotahippie]

Kinda' all just blends together...just school.

 

[sotc]

I teach new guys how to climb with out a split tail first. That way if they forget some gear and have rope and saddle they can still work. Blakes or taughtline though I prefer the blakes hitch. Most guys that come and try out have climbed on a taughtline and never seen a split tail. Always seem blown away by the efficiency of a split tail system

 

[NeTree]

I'm with Willie, Greg.

If they can't catch on old school, then climbing isn't going to be their career. Gear may get dropped, lost, and the like. Knowing how to climb with just a rope and saddle is Climbing 101, along with self-rescue.

Some people can do the job, some people can't. I don't think you can really make a climber out of just anybody; they have to have at least some natural ability for it, just as with roping and rigging, and all the rest of tree work.

 

[NeTree]

My biggest pet peeve is the guy who can't seem to understand which side to cut wood from, and constantly get his saw pinched. Even worse is when they bend, twist, and yank at the saw to get it out, rather than just getting another saw or a wedge.

I've had guys I've spent lots of time on who just don't get it.

Up there with guys who insist on revving the motor up against the chain brake, smoking the poor clutch. He's the same guy who snaps the brake back on with the motor still wound up at 10 grand.

 

[thattreeguy]

i try them out with split tail first, seems safer, but i agree old school
1st is best
depends on the guy or ....gal...(for hmm's sake)

 

[wiley_p]

You know me Greg. Split tail for sure, often a VT right away, SRT, MA basics, throwline usage, Blah, blah, blah.

 

[gf beranek]

Having spent 18 years in line clearance work 13 of which was spent training young men to do the work. It was all old school then, but I started using srt systems in the early 80's for rec climbs. Over the wires and double line it was the long- tailed-bowline and taught-line-hitch.

First thing a young man learned on the crew was his knots and twisted rope splices. Just the basics. Bowline, running bowline, timber hitch, clove, girth (cow) and Carrick.

It was all spur and flipline and I'd take them to a tree, usually a soft barked second redwood about 30 inches and demonstrate how to roll a line around and up and down. Then cut them loose and let them go at their own pace. If they were rough starting I'd give them a few pointers, but pretty much let them develop their own style. In a couple of weeks most were over the wires and pulling overhangs. The few that couldn't make it as a climber went on the road crews and chased brush under a taskmaster bucket operator.

Looking back at it now I can see the potential a young man had for the work, but there were a few that I thought were not going to make it that turned out being very competent climbers in the end. Those young men just asked more questions in the beginning, and what I thought was they were not getting it they were just asking plain honest questions. And if I could answer their question properly they'd go on to the next one.

And that's where I learned not all people pick it up naturally. Some people just need things explained to them. On the other hand there were a few naturals that I had to actually tell them to slow down or they where going to hurt themselves, or someone else.

It certainly takes all kinds. It was really a special time in my life to work with so many young men, and many of which today are foremen or private owners running their own crews.

 

[rumination]

I feel a new climber needs to at least know how to climb with one rope and a saddle for their own safety. However, once they understand that they can quickly move on to whatever setup seems like will work best for them.

 

[squisher]

I'm learning still not teaching.

Only 'training' I ever received was definetly real old school, in the bush. No climbline, one flipline and spurs. Get up get r done and get down.

 

[MasterBlaster]

That's cool for setting a choker/whatnot.

 

[Fiddler]

Any groundman who aspires to climb wil learn how to use spikes & lanyard to get up a stub to set a rope and backdown.

After they know knots, tree & hazard inspection, climb gear inspection, and basic job/climb planning, I Start them out w/anchor hitch & Blakes and they must perform a rescue. Then go to trimming the safer, easier trees w/handsaw, until I feel they climb well enough to handle a chainsaw in a tree and try removals. Sometime while they are learning to trim they will go to a split tail.

This is pretty much how I learned.

I really try to instill the ideas of patience, caution, and being willing to ask when they are not sure of something, as well as being able to monitor their own fatigue level and knowing when they shouldn't be aloft.

 

[squisher]

That's cool for setting a choker/whatnot.

I've taken tops like that, and really when even just going up to set three guylines and a giant ass block it's not much fun at all. Husky 272 was the climbing saw I was most familiar with before finding the interwebs . A climbline and a hitch would have made life much easier. We were just like mushrooms up here, kept in the dark.

 

[wiley_p]

I notice a lot of fellas are saying "old school". The reason I don't teach that first is cause it's old. The traditional rope climb methods are slower and more difficult, that equals more fatigue, safety issue. Production, a guy climbing on a split tail with a vt, Knut, icicle, etc is going to have a way easier time working than the poor fella working off a Blakes whether it's on an open/closed system.
I do teach the Blakes with a closed system, for 2 reasons.
1. It's an important tool to have aavailble
2. Tradition and history are important.
I mix up some old stuff in the initial kit. Every one of my climbers can rappel on a Munter before they ever use a friction device.
They all can run a Porty, set up a Z-rig, tie several important knots and hitches, know th fundamental relationship of a face and backcut, etc. Thats just the first 6 months.

Old school is for the history books. I feel it has no place in starting a climber out anymore. It's slow, archaic, and unsafe compared to the options we have available to us now in then industry.

 

[Blinky]

I've only trained a few and I haven't found a method I like yet. Started one guy on spikes with a top rope, then a split-tail and a Distel... then he took off and is now 'competition'. Except that he still calls me when he needs to climb and rig anything.

My son started on a VT and he gets it just fine. He's watched me climb for a while though... went for a 25' limb walk on his third climb no problem... he's just smart as hell.

Another guy (a cop) I tried to teach rope ascent on DdRT with a Pantin... unsuccessful. He got up made a cut and hasn't climbed since.

EDIT:
Nobody's a climber until they can work with nothing but a rope, lanyard and harness.

 

[wiley_p]

Difficulty that a student has is the instructors problem to solve. If they ain't getting it, that means you ain't getting it across properly.

 

[Old Monkey]

I prefer that everyone on my crew knows how to climb to some degree or another. I start them out with a Blake's and split tail. I usually work them in on simple deadwooding jobs with just a hand saw. For spurs I let them chunk down the last 30' of easy spars to start getting the feel of it. I like to watch them at first and then leave them with another rookie so they do not get nervous having me watching their every move. Later I show them more advanced hitches(I switch back and forth myself) and let them try them if they are interested.

 

[darkstar]

Find a really good all around rock climber , keep him on the ground for 3 months.
Then just say sick umm boy...

 

[Bodean]

Great question.

I agree with Dave, why fatique and frustrate a climber with a mandatory tautline?

Though I agree with Erik, in that knowing how to prune a tree with a saddle and a leatherman is basic fundamental mandatory knowledge for a climber.

Still need to produce something out of nothing in a tree.

Climbing with a rope and saddle with a tautline helps to express ingenuity, creativity and foresight.

Working with limitations helps to develop a climber that can see four moves ahead like chess.

Instead of just what's in front of them. Blinders.


New techniques and gadgetry is very important for efficiency and even greater production.


I think people naturally fall into either "old school" classic climbers or new techy's or something compromising the best between the groups.

 

[stig]

I don't get the reasoning behind so many of you starting climbers out with a Blake's hitch or tautline.
Do you start new trainee fallers out with a stoneaxe?
When newer and, frankly, better methods are available, why not use them.

 

[wiley_p]

I don't get the reasoning behind so many of you starting climbers out with a Blake's hitch or tautline.
Do you start new trainee fallers out with a stoneaxe?
When newer and, frankly, better methods are available, why not use them.

I share that thought.