Mud Truck Thread!

[cybergeek23851]

Here is LJ at the support meeting for rock crawlers anonymous:

"Hello, my name is LJ, and today I crawled over rocks, it felt good'.

Uhhh SNARF... it's Tuesday...!


We rake mudders, especially newb mudders over the coals on Tuesday on Pirate.... I'm not kidding either.

 

[lumberjack]

I thought Tues was the newbs ask stupid questions and get charred day?

 

[cybergeek23851]

So far, it's been quiet...

Now, being that I've posted this, there will be a newb to post in Chit-chat, where they will be promptly be flamed.

 

[lumberjack]

The flaming is retarded to me.

I got the axle stand made, sans casters. I figured out that the casters won't be needed for a while as what I'm doing now is all stationary work.

To do list on the axles;
Pull stock brakes
Pull the hubs and spindles
Remove axle shafts
Remove stock boot guard
Remove what's left of the boots
Remove the stock steering arm
Remove center section
Roll housing over and mohawk
Remove stock tie rod
Remove knuckles, install one piece boots
Reinstall knuckles, axle shafts and spindles
Get and install brake rotors, calipers can be done later.
Reinstall hubs
Install hydro cylinder and links, burn in mounts
Remove hydro cylinder and links
Clean housing and paint.
Repeat on the other axle.

Will probably get the axles down to the disc brake point, each corner will cost about $200-$250. Each steering cylinder is $200.

Going to pick the tires up in a couple weeks, he may have wheels on the cheap ($100 a piece) that I'll have to cut the center out and weld in one with the correct pattern.

Get the tires and wheels paid for, and it's time to start saving money to buy my rifle back from arborworks1 in October assuming he's still wanting to give it up at that point. I'll need about $1700 more than I presently have saved for that. In the mean while I'm looking for good deals on parts, but I still gotta be ready for the rifle.

Get that taken care of and I'll get the brakes and the axle portion of the hydro steering worked out. Recover from that and it's time to start fabbing up the new frame (or subframe, haven't decided which), cage and suspension. I figure I'll be at this point around the first quarter of 09, unless work is good to me and I get money faster than I expect. I figure the frame, cage, and suspension will set me back at least $4k including a tubing bender. I'll probably invest in a MIG welder to speed the process up. The 100amp Lincoln Core Pro can only do so much and I really don't feel like using the Miller Thunderbolt to stick weld all of that.


The suspension, I'm thinking hard about an inverted 3 link (2 parallel on top and a backwards wishbone below). The benifits of the inverted wishbone is excellent drive shaft protection, by way of the fact that the delta shaped link can have a skid plate welded/bolted to the bottom of it. The parallel upper links allow (most of) the adjustability of a 4 link. They also handle locating the axle side to side in conjunction with the wishbone. By splitting the loads up, I can probably use smaller (cheaper) joints all around. Another idea is called a one link suspension, using a wishbone/delta with the 2 ends welded(or bolted) to the axle. The wishbone handles both fore and aft control of the axle, as well as the torque reaction. Side loads would be controlled with a panhard bar. Two disadvantages are that there is very limited adjustability in the wishbone/1 point swing arm, and two, the loads on the one point are substantially higher, meaning I'd need quite a large joint ($), but, only one for each suspension (1 front/1 rear). The cost will just about wash out in that regard. I'm not a big fan of panhard bars however, I don't like the lateral shift as the move through their arc, and the roll center is/can be higher. Using a suffeciently long bar that's parallel with the axle will negate this.

Think that's it for now

 

[Paul B]

Personally I think we need more details Carl. I mean shit, do you expect us to just imagine all this stuff up?


LOL.

here is a dream rig for someone. not me but someone out there must want a busted ass truck with MR T in the back, no?

 

[lumberjack]

Oh yeah, tools that would be nice.

Drill press, although I'd rather get a Bridgeport. A drill press will nearly be required for the tabs/brackets of the frame/cage/suspension.

Lathe, not required, but it'd go well with my Bridgeport.

A bandsaw would also be nice, but not required.

Tubing bender, figure I'll make one to use the JD2's Model 4 dies. I don't have a problem with the price, if it had the ability to make 90* one shot bends. With different geomety 90* is easily doable, and I can do that for less money (especially if I have a drill press) than it would cost to buy it. I'm pondering using the mini as a power source for the bender.

Tube notcher, although I've been hearing good things about using band/chop/dry saws instead. In that case I'll just need a vice.

Mig welder, something with enough power to get into spray welding (250amps+). Spray is optional, but it will be nice for the heavy plate frame that serves as a base for the suspensions, roll cage, engine cage, and the foundation for the powertrain.

Plasma, although I'm looking at TIG/Arc/Plasma combo units. Figuring a 60 amp plasma and a 200 amp Tig. I already have the Miller for stick welding up to 225 amps.

 

[lumberjack]

Ha Pauly.

I'm also using this thread to keep track of my ideas.

Today when I was building the engine stand I had planned to set the cross memeber at an angle from the bottom of one side to the top of another side. The reasons were A: it would clear the center section B: make saving the metal in the cross member easier and C: offer more lateral stabilty.

I tacked the member in on the floor (getting it lined up), when I set it on the table, I kinda dropped it, breaking the tacks. Getting it back at the right angle was going to be a PITA on the table, so I just welded it across the bottom of the saddles.

Sure enough, when I went to lower the axle on the stand, the effin dome under the center section didn't like the cross memeber in the way.

For giggles I turned the stand upside down, (the saddles are about 1/2-1/3 the length of the feet) and set the axle on top of it. Supprisingly stable, but it looked rediculous and strapping the axle down was going to be harder.

 

[Paul B]

Just wish I was you neighbor, you would have an awesome rental, I mean borrow rating with the local handymans.

 

[sawinredneck]

Why no love for the pinion brakes Carl? I always thought they would be the shit! (I've never used the either though!)

You can get a Bridgeport clone cheap enough, we have a "Birmingham" at work, it's not what I am used to, but gets the job done. Around $3500 I think?
Tooling is what kills you!!

 

[lumberjack]

Pinion brakes suck, but are cheap. I could have pinion brakes on both axles for about $300, that's the advantage unless you're using them as parking brakes. Another advantage could be they are higher up and thus out of the mud.

The downsides are they are either on or off, not nearly as smooth. Secondly, unless you run a spool, the braking can get weird. Third, the backlash assembly can get you rocking when you come to a stop. Fourth, they completely suck at higher speeds, they overheat in a hurry, Conservation of Energy and all.

I was thinking a used Bridgeport off Craigs or Ebay.

Any pointers as to what I'm looking for? I don't have 3 phase, although a converter might be worth it if the price is right on the mill. (Or a motor swap)

 

[cybergeek23851]

Carl... Used 3ph devices like lathes and knee mills are dirt cheap typically, because unless a person has 3 phase power, they are likely not to buy them. Otherwise the 2 options are a phase converter(either static or rotary) or a motor swap.


JD2 makes a good bender

As for plasmas, I'd look for Thermal Dynamics or Hypertherm. I liked the Thermal Dynamics Cutmaster 51 that I used to use for teaching purposes while working at the college. I'd go with what you can find parts for in your area.
http://cgi.ebay.com/THERMAL-DYNAMIC...photoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

Welders... you can never go wrong with Lincoln, Miller, Hobart, or ESAB(if available). I cut my teeth on the precursor to the Millermatic 251(replaced with the 252), the 250X.
http://cgi.ebay.com/MILLERMATIC-252...yZ113743QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Killer deal on an ESAB
http://cgi.ebay.com/ESAB-MIGMASTER-...yZ113743QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and the Lincoln Electric PowerMig 255
http://cgi.ebay.com/LINCOLN-POWER-M...yZ113743QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[sawinredneck]

Thank you for answering that question Carl!

Most three phase motors can be re-wired single phase. Hopefully Al will chime in, he is much brighter at this than I!
But phase inverters are getting cheap.

Look at the older Bridgeports with the step pulley. same machine and build, you just have to change the belt on the pulleys to get the RPM right. They are usually a lot tighter machine (Old timers take care of the equipment better) and a LOT cheaper. $2500 or less will get a NICE one!!
If you really want variable speed, I fell totaly in love with the Aliant mills, I WANT one bad!!! I think they are built better than the Bridgeport.
But honestly, if taken care of, any of them are fine choices, I have run about every brand out there and made some very nice parts on these machines.

 

[lumberjack]

I saw the ESAB earlier, what makes it a killer deal? It seems comparable to the 252 in performance but $500 cheaper?

No problem with the brake question Andy.



ETA:
I've thought about getting a Ready Welder and powering it with my Miller Thunderbolt.

When I was building the steel ramps for the mini I used the Lincoln as a wire feeder and hooked the Miller to it. Thus far the welds are holding up like champs, I guess a weld test should be on order to see if that's a viable option.

A RW would suck because it's heavy and only holds a 1-2lb spool.

ETAx2, I could set up a jig to transfer wire from a 10 or 33lb spool to the 1lb spool to save in the expense.

ETAx3I can presently get a Miller 12vs suicase wire feeder for $1200, a wee bit of overkill, but it would work with my Thunderbolt (20% @150amps, 25VDC). The 12VS normally goes for $2k and it's rated to take 60% at 425amps. I only mention it because it's an honesty wire feeder that's made to take constant current or constant voltage(Like a Ready Welder, minus the spool gun and a couple times the capacity) that's at a reasonable price used.

 

[Frans]

I have been looking at this:
http://www.gianttechplasmacutter.com/

It is a combination plasma cutter, arc welder, and tig welder. Under 900 bucks. Made in China, but supposed to be a good unit for light to medium jobs.




I have seen alot of massive milling machines in the metal scrap yards. Talked with this guy who said that so much of this type of work has gone overseas, that you can pick up units for pennies on the dollar.

 

[lumberjack]

I've also considered a similar product from a vender on Pirate. Mainly for the TIG and Plasma.

 

[RIVERRAT]

I saw the ESAB earlier, what makes it a killer deal? It seems comparable to the 252 in performance but $500 cheaper?

Just be sure you take a look at the size of the fan that cools it. The higher grade MiG machines have bigger & or a more efficient cooling system. That costs more $ & keeps a smile on your face longer.

 

[cybergeek23851]

I've also considered a similar product from a vender on Pirate. Mainly for the TIG and Plasma.

Giant Tech as well as Parker are vendors on Pirate.

 

[lumberjack]

I think I just figured out the wheels for the Michelins!

I pondered using a stock M35A2 wheel, but the weird backspacing might be an issue and I wasn't sure how wide they were (need 10" for the Michelins). Those wheels are way way cheaper, like $25-35 a piece.

Looking at the blue truck, I knew whoever built that wouldn't spend $350+ per wheel. Just now I got to looking at the pictures and sure enough, he used those wheels. The downside is the weird backspacing, but it might not be an issue to run the turned in (9-10" of back space). The only downside to running them turned out would be the increased width, although that might not be terrible either.

Compare:

M35A2:

I got the flanged yokes for the Rocks in today, 4 (2 spares) for $105 delivererd. They look like NOS.

 

[lumberjack]

So far I've found that I can get them in Memphis for $98.64 (Probably + tax)a piece when I pick the up the tires. They have already been cleaned and repainted.

In Texarkana,Ar/TX I can get them for $35 a piece, Texark is 277 miles from Memphis. I'm wanting 6 tires and wheels (2 spares). That means $600 in Memphis, or $210+$58 to drive the Civic down (+$16 to take the trailer) to get them before or after I get the tires in Memphis. About 7.5 hours round trip from Memphis to Texarkana and back. 3 hours one way from here to Memphis.

Waiting to hear from a company located on the way to Atlanta before I make my decision. I'll be going through there in October if not September, or, they are closer than Texark to Memphis (120 miles round trip, $46/$57).

 

[lumberjack]

Texarkana it is @$35. I'll call them tomorrow to reserve them and ask if they have a truck headed to Little Rock or Memphis, to throw them on it .

Tallapoosa was $75 a wheel, fwiw.

 

[GASoline71]

Cool Carlito...

Are you gonna use a big hydraulic assist on your steering setup?

Gary

 

[lumberjack]

Running full hydro front and rear using doubled ended cylinders.

Just went out and measured, I can fit at least 4 wheels in the truck, maybe all 6 with the back seat still up.

 

[lumberjack]

Here's the cylinder, 2.5" bore, 10" stroke, 1.5" shaft, 1570lbs of force @ 1kpsi. It pushes against the 7-9" steering arm (haven't measured) makes for alot of turning force on the tires at a lower system pressure (more reliable). You can't tell in the picture, but the shaft sticks out both ends, thus replacing the tie rod. The ends of the rod are threaded to take hemi shackles which I've yet to source.

3kpsi max, $210 a piece.

With luck the steering will be behind the front axle and in front of the rear, both cylinders and the majority of the links being protected by the wishbone's skid plate and no tierod to worry about bending.

 

[lumberjack]

Holy crap.

I can get a set front and rear Rocks for $900. Trying to decide if I want them.


ETA:
Sent him an offer based on some contingencies. The axles are in really good condition, come with 4 wheels that I need, 2 driveshafts I can use, leaf springs which I don't need, a front reseal kit that I need, and that he can deliever them to Memphis this weekend on his way to Primm for a race (he mentioned Primm, Memphis is on the way). Under $50 to go get them from Memphis, I wouldn't be able to haul them back with the tires, the brakes and springs will nearly pay for the gas.


Figuring $67 per wheel from Texarka $268
Drive shafts per Ebay $200
Reseal Kit $121


So that's $950 to get them, $624 parts that I already need and planed to buy and a little scrap (450lbs or so). That leaves an invested amount of $326, which the money from the Suburban will cover. The set of axles normally goes for $1000-1200 which is enough for the LoMax transfer case kit, or I could keep what I want (center sections mainly) and sell the rest (mainly the axle shafts).

Just needed to work out the math, thanks for the bandwidth.

 

[RIVERRAT]

Dang Carl thats pretty cheap