How do you guys decide which trees to climb?

Oh.....and I should mention this also......though it's a bit embarrassing to do so.

The reason for the tag line on the block in the top of the tree is to account for human error. Don't ask me how I know this.

Should the rigging rope somehow be pulled out from the top-mounted block, you'll have no way of retrieving the block. In other words, "Now you're screwed". Attaching a tag line to the block will allow you to simply retrieve it and load it with rigging rope again, should you let the rigging rope run through the block......for some odd reason......such as I did once.

Joel
 
Masterblaster,

The school of hard knocks is a quick teacher.

I was rigging down a dead green ash using this method, when I suddenly realized that 200 feet of rope won't cut the mustard. There must be a way. Well, sure enough......there is! LOL

It's been a long time. I think I learned that trick back in the late 1980s.

Joel
 
Folks,

There are many warning signs that should be posted here. The forces in play at the top of a tree rigged in this manner are at a minimum 4 times greater than the weight of the limb being removed. Since we've suspended a block in a crotch of a limb that was deemed too weak to support a climber at that height, we need to understand how dangerous this rigging method can be.

The plus side is that we're dealing with relatively small stuff......still plenty big enough to kill a man though. Use this rigging method with great caution, and don't put any undue stress on the rigging ropes. A set of fiddle blocks attached to the rigging rope can multiply the forces at the top rigging point by up to 20 times. Holy crap! Don't do it. You should easily be able to pull these limbs up and toward the top rigging point by hand. Any limb requiring more force than this will require different rigging methods.

USE WITH CAUTION

Joel
 
Nicely done, Joel! I just spent some time trying to download an app that would allow me to create a drawing on my handheld computer. I couldn't figure out a way to to actually take it from the handheld and use it on this forum, though. Thankfully, you managed it by the time I gave up on it.

Atta boy!

Tim
 
OK Tim, I'm assuming that you were able to understand what I was attempting to explain.......but honestly I don't know how you managed with that drawing I made. LOL

Hope that helped somebody.

Joel
 
candoarms said:
OK Tim, I'm assuming that you were able to understand what I was attempting to explain.......but honestly I don't know how you managed with that drawing I made. LOL

Hope that helped somebody.

Joel
Click to expand...

candoarms said:
I don't know if this will work.

View attachment 69138

Joel
Click to expand...

Yeah, Joel, I think I understood. The drawing on the left shows the four legs/320 feet of rigging rope required when you leave the block up in the tree, plus the one leg of the rigging rope that holds the block in the tree.

The drawing on the right shows how you only need two legs of the rigging rope that's going to be catching the branch, plus the two legs of the separate rope that holds the pulley in the top of the tree. You thereby save one 80 foot leg of rope in total, and more importantly, because it eliminates the need for an extra-long rigging rope. Two 200 foot rigging ropes can get the job done, if I'm understanding everything correctly.

Thanks for your posts.

Tim
 
Tim_B. said:
Nicely done, Joel! I just spent some time trying to download an app that would allow me to create a drawing on my handheld computer. I couldn't figure out a way to to actually take it from the handheld and use it on this forum, though. Thankfully, you managed it by the time I gave up on it.

Atta boy!

Tim
Click to expand...

I was just thinking if I had to post a drawing, I would just draw it on paper and take a picture of it ! since that is about all I am capable of doing at this point is pictures and typing, not so good at the latter.
 
Ha! I wasn't smart enough to think of the more simple answer! Although, now that I think of it, the photograph and post solution would be easier to execute on my laptop computer. I'm not sure I'd be able to manage it with my handheld computer.

One more technology thing to try to figure out. It will be helpful for future posting if and when I do.

Tim
 
I just like the clean rigging that this system provides for. The active rigging rope is located entirely in the tree. The static rigging rope attached to the block can easily be piled into a trash can below the port-a-wrap as the block is raised with no effort at all. Standard length rigging ropes work just fine, even for some very high jobs. The amount of rope that is handled with each new limb removal is substantially less.

I must say though........without some form of friction saver at the top, raising that block each time can get to be a real job. The Rig and Ring is great for this purpose.

http://www.treestuff.com/store/images/products/9012.jpg

Joel
 
If only I knew about this a month ago!! I was removing some limbs over a house in a large oak, and my rigging line would not reach the ground. I added several slings to the end of the rigging line which was a PIA on cuts closer to my rigging point. This trick (although I would have needed another heavy rigging line) would have done the trick! Now that my new 200' line came in that point is kind of mute, but I still like having this in my bag of tricks for tip tie situations like the one being discussed here. Thanks for the info!
 
Woodslinger,

You're very welcome, Sir.

The instructors at the professional rigging classes I've attended would simply cringe at this......but I've used it many times on small tip-tie situations with fantastic results.

I can't remember the guy's name.....the inventor of the GRCS......Mr. Good.....or something like that.........he has a great video on "Quiet Rigging". No negative rigging forces. No violence. Just easy, quiet rigging using the tip-tie method. This form of rigging is actually very safe, due to the fact that there are no drop and catch forces in play, such as those encountered with the negative rigging methods.

It's always a judgement call when this method can be used safely. Green Ash removals present a fantastic learning experience, due to those long, small, spindly tops that weigh almost nothing. I've removed some fairly large branches (38 feet long and about 5" at the hinge) using this method. I just make dang sure I have a strong. vertical stem, with a healthy crotch to rig from.

Joel
 
It seems like there should be a good deal of friction at play on the working end of the block rope. I bet it's usually closer to a 3:1 vs a true 4X multiplication of force. Wouldn't mention this as a rule, but I bet in the real world the friction at the crotch cuts down on the load on the block line down to the porty. Even through a ring-and-ring I bet you'd still be loosing some weight to friction.

It still amazes me that something that weights 200lbs can exert 800lbs of force somewhere just based on how it's hung. crazy.
 
Grendel,

You brought up a great point, and I'd like to address it a bit.

When using natural crotch rigging, there isn't much rope in the system between the crotch and the block. There might only be about a foot of rope. This very small length of rope presents problems in itself, due to the fact that there is no room for stretch at all. It turns a good rigging rope into a static rope, of sorts.

Adding the Rig and Ring into the system reduces most of the friction at the top, allowing the rigging rope, attached to the block, to stretch over its entire length. This is a much safer situation.

I'm curious now just how much the friction in the crotch would reduce the multiplied forces that this rigging system generates. On paper it's 4-1. In real life, I have no idea. You might be closer with your guess of 3-1.

Maybe we can get Nick Bonner to perform an experiment or two for us, using his fancy load cell. All he'd have to do is install the load cell on the block's attachment point on the port-a-wrap.

Joel
 
Excellent point on maximizing the rope in the system. But like you say, hopefully the pieces being caught would be light, and laid into the rigging gently, with this setup.

Good stuff man.
 
Climbhigh said:
I was just thinking if I had to post a drawing, I would just draw it on paper and take a picture of it ! since that is about all I am capable of doing at this point is pictures and typing, not so good at the latter.
Click to expand...

I do this from time to time. Way easier than computer drawing.
 
Sean,

I didn't know how to go about it. I just quickly scribbled something in Paint, then saved it to my desktop. My son is fantastic with this stuff. He uses Google Sketchup. Sketchup is one of the neatest tools I've ever seen. I'm not good with it yet, but what a fantastic library of goodies. Now I'm curious.....does Sketchup have any arborist tools in the library? I'm going to do some looking.

Joel
 
candoarms said:
Sean,

I didn't know how to go about it. I just quickly scribbled something in Paint, then saved it to my desktop. My son is fantastic with this stuff. He uses Google Sketchup. Sketchup is one of the neatest tools I've ever seen. I'm not good with it yet, but what a fantastic library of goodies. Now I'm curious.....does Sketchup have any arborist tools in the library? I'm going to do some looking.

Joel
Click to expand...

Do you know how to use the picture Uploader, under the Go Advanced tab, under Manage Attachments?
 
Sean, I have no idea how to use the picture uploader. The best I'm able to do is post a link.......on a good day.

You know......I've tried that removable false crotch, and it works great. I love it. But, it won't work on a Green Ash, due to the tight Y-shaped crotches. A block will not pass through the crotch. I often find it difficult to get the Rig and Ring to pass.

The rigging photos you posted are fantastic. Thank you!

Joel
 
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