Timber Framing
- Thread starter brendonv
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Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
Check? For what, you want a couple of those frames?
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
That brace looks like it is 3"x5" stock. You can see they cut a 1.5" half lap on it. If they moved that brace to the outside of the frame, which would be proper, then it would be identical to a m&t brace for that location. Basically you cut the lap at half the thickness of the stock when half-lapping. That lap in the post and plate is also time consuming to cut. You can saw part of the shoulders, but then the rest has to be chopped out. Also, with a mortised brace, you don't cut that slope on the back of the mortise. So, basically, the brace is identical between an m&t and a half lap, and the mortise is the same, with the exception that the one for the half-lap is bare faced, and harder to cut. The only way to make the brace easier than m&t is to simply cut the brace with 45's on each end, and screw them in with heavy screws. This is obviously not the strongest way to go, but it is very fast, and the braces can be cut on a sliding compound miter saw, or a radical harm saw (radial arm saw). If you had a a SCMS, or RAS, you could even cut out all the brace blanks ahead or time, even if tenoning them.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
I don't have a clue what the standard is, but that brace is not attractive to my eye. Are you gaining required strength by letting it in so far? No doubt strength is the priority, but it's an unpleasing proportion with the pieces it is let in to. Perhaps a minor point given the context of the entire structure, but the overall attractiveness is the sum of it's parts. A lapping brace would be stylish, where the joint line gets covered. It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to do, some more saw and chisel work.
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
The 3/8" translates to 1/2", approximately, when you present the brace to the post at a 45 degree angle. If you are using 1" housings instead of 1/2", you would layout the brace using a 3/4" line. You can see in the drawing that the 3/8" line, in dashes, gives you a 1/2" reduction on the nose of the brace. Hope that helps.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
So cool to work w/o nails.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Ancient skills. There is a vast array of diversity and complexity of joints. Sadly, it won't be long before there are more joints than the guys making them.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/NwAnpqjEo1A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/NwAnpqjEo1A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Whoa!
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
Brendon, I forgot to answer your other question. Tenon sizing is part timber size, and part engineering. On a 3"x5" brace, you will have a 1.5"/1.5" layout. That means your mortise or tenon is 1.5" away from your reference edge, and the m or t is 1.5" wide. On a 4"x6" brace, it would be 2"/2". The length of a tenon is determined by the load on the joint. There is vertical shear for a horizontal member, as well as peg hole relish failure. The relish is the area between the peg hole and the end of the tenon. In tension, this little piece of wood can be ripped out, rendering the peg useless. This is shown by the dotted lines on the drawing. Ideally, you would try to avoid tension joinery, as wood works better in compression. That is why braces are always in pairs, that way one of them is always working in compression to support the load. In many early frames, the braces were not even pegged.
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
Chris Hall does that kind of work. He is in Greenfield, MA. Does that kind of work require very dry wood? My timber work is all in green wood. Even if I cut very accurate joinery like that, it would be all wonky when the wood dried. I believe they use a lot of port orford cedar for that? Probably minimal shrinkage anyway. What was up with the 12 pound sledgehammer and the Marples blue chip chisel? That wasn't very authentic.
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
If you have plans, it should give you dimensions for the brace. The length of a brace is determined by the layout. If the brace is 3' down the post, and 3' out on the beam, then the length (or hypotenuse) of the brace is 50.91", which is 50 and 29/64". Most people use either 50 and 7/8" or 50 and 15/16". An older framing square will have a brace table on it to tell you what the length of a brace is. Tenons on braces are usually about 3" long from the shoulder. As I mentioned in the last post, they are working in compression, so they don't need to be super strong.
I may have photos of cutting a brace, if not, I can take some the next time I do one.
I may have photos of cutting a brace, if not, I can take some the next time I do one.
brendonv
Tree Hugger
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #619
Sweet deal
Do you have any experience on gibson timber framers? I was thinking of getting their plan, making it not as wide, but add one more bent for length.
http://www.gibsontimberframes.com/store/plan1a.jpg
Do you have any experience on gibson timber framers? I was thinking of getting their plan, making it not as wide, but add one more bent for length.
http://www.gibsontimberframes.com/store/plan1a.jpg
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
I don't know much about them. In 2009 I took two workshops at the Heartwood school. The first week was Cruck framing, and there was a guy from Gibson there. The second week was scribing, and there was another guy from Gibson. The guy from the first week was Pat Moore, and he went to France and entered the Compagnons du Devoir, which is the French timber framers guild.
How tall do you need the door to be? Going much narrower than 18' with a tall eave height might look strange.
How tall do you need the door to be? Going much narrower than 18' with a tall eave height might look strange.
brendonv
Tree Hugger
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #621
Im thinking 14' wide. I have to remeasure, but maybe 9-11 tall. My idea is to pour a 24x36 pad. Have the new truck and chipper under the 14' wide x 36 "carport on steroids". Then the bucket truck parked on the remaining pad off the gravel. When i move deconstruct and build the remaining portion next to it.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Dave, the sledge and chisel in the vid, I thought confusing as well. Those are some European guys that were learning some techniques, they must have brought their tools with them, or it was some kind of joke. It isn't the normal approach to be holding wood under a desk lamp or using such gear.
The vast majority of such joining methods are done with dry wood, a combination of both green or semi green, and dry wood, is often the approach to timber frame in these parts. By far the most complex work is on temples and shrines, where there are big budgets, thanks to the members of those places or outside support, and long periods of preparation, and it isn't just the average carpenter that builds those structures, but specialists that comprise a different trade to do the work. At my friend, crazy priest's place, they must have started logging timber on his mountain around four or five years in advance to get the wood that was needed. I did some of the logging right around where the old temple stood. i know he was going around like a mf soliciting contributions from his large congregation, collected 7 million dollars, the old tried and true method of letting everyone know who wants to give the most. The guys that built it were the pinnacle of that type of carpentry profession, with the lineage of master and apprentice going way back. Your average neighborhood temple might be a two year project once the construction starts, and well in advance of that to begin the preparation. As far as the Asian side of things, anyone interested in timber frame should visit a place like Kyoto to see wooden buildings that are national treasures, that really can define what highly advanced skills can produce in the trade of carpentry. There are a few blokes around that deserve to have rose petals thrown at their feet when they walk, and often still working beyond retirement age, because of the rarity and need for what they know. They don't look different in their gray uniforms, but when they point their fingers, the underlings dance.
The vast majority of such joining methods are done with dry wood, a combination of both green or semi green, and dry wood, is often the approach to timber frame in these parts. By far the most complex work is on temples and shrines, where there are big budgets, thanks to the members of those places or outside support, and long periods of preparation, and it isn't just the average carpenter that builds those structures, but specialists that comprise a different trade to do the work. At my friend, crazy priest's place, they must have started logging timber on his mountain around four or five years in advance to get the wood that was needed. I did some of the logging right around where the old temple stood. i know he was going around like a mf soliciting contributions from his large congregation, collected 7 million dollars, the old tried and true method of letting everyone know who wants to give the most. The guys that built it were the pinnacle of that type of carpentry profession, with the lineage of master and apprentice going way back. Your average neighborhood temple might be a two year project once the construction starts, and well in advance of that to begin the preparation. As far as the Asian side of things, anyone interested in timber frame should visit a place like Kyoto to see wooden buildings that are national treasures, that really can define what highly advanced skills can produce in the trade of carpentry. There are a few blokes around that deserve to have rose petals thrown at their feet when they walk, and often still working beyond retirement age, because of the rarity and need for what they know. They don't look different in their gray uniforms, but when they point their fingers, the underlings dance.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
I wonder if some Amish guy got distracted because a woman showed some ankle?
Every country seems to have developed timber framing in their own way. The French got pretty out there on roof framing, did some wonderful looking and complex work.
Every country seems to have developed timber framing in their own way. The French got pretty out there on roof framing, did some wonderful looking and complex work.
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