Someone Might Care... Who Knows?

[Magnus]

That can't be Öberg files, they were better than anything I tried since.
I still have some and take one out once in a while for comparison.

 

[Jed]

The Oberg double-bevel files I use to buy in the 80s would generally last the life of a chain. One chain one file. By the late 90s it took 3 Oberg double-bevel files to sharpen a chain through its life. One chain 3 files. Files cost $6 bug each.

The moral of the story: You sell far more cheap files than you do good ones. Like light bulbs. The customer gets rooked every time.

I got rooked by Vialla (not Valhalla Magnus. ) which are made in Portugal, for the last time. The file blanks aren't even straight. I'm having super good luck with the Stihl Swiss made triangles. Super expensive, but worth it. I wanna say that the only double-bevel or double ender files that are even available right now that you can depend on to be straight are the Pferd German files. I'd be happy to be wrong. I'm just shopping Bailey's and haven't checked out Madsen's in a while. Our senior shop foreman actually conned our shop manager into ordering me a dozen Stihl triangles. Unprecedented in our stingy shop.

Early 80's eh? Must have been nice. Man, they don't make em' like they used to.

 

[cory]

Pferd have been da bomb for as long as I can remember. I usually get appprox 1 file per chain.

 

[gf beranek]

Come to think of it the latter were made Portugal. Almost forgot that. Thanks

 

[Jed]

Yup, my later double-enders are all Viallas. The Portuguese double-bevels and triangles are just maddening because the "little sides" (the sides that do the side plates) can go from narrow, to slightly wider as the file stroke moves down the chisel. In this manner the file is actually wedging itself into the side plate. Beyond maddening--the're flat unusable.

 

[gf beranek]

I can relate to that. Later in my career I started using a grinder. Though it took some time to master. Through a period of trial and error I eventually did. After that I only used a file to touch up a slightly worn chain in the field.

 

[Jed]

Green with envy. I'm having a hart time making the jump. Not just financially... it's like I've got that "Tree-guy Set in His Ways," thing ya know?

A hilarious admission after boasting to Magnus about how I'm never happy, and love trying new stuff.

Truth is: as an arb. I can't quite justify the start up cost. Cutting in the woods.... I guess it'd be different.

 

[Magnus]

There is in my opinion more limitations in grinding than filing.
I run grinders quite a bit and I hardly use them today, unless it is a lot material that needs to go like half of a new tooth...
I get then better than new chains, but not as good as filed.

I tried many discs and grinders, tested shapes and angles just like with file. Run them outside in and inside out etc.
It is same there if there is burr you are not done or did something wrong.

 

[Magnus]

Magnus, the best I can offer is to come visit me and I will get you on the road to sharper chains. In the mean time, I'm away visiting family for the holiday. Merry Christmas to you, or whatever holiday you celebrate. A happy new year to you as well. May it be a successful year filled with more saws, abundant business, good health, and improved social skills. Cheers my friend!

Still fishing for that bed stand pic??
I would like to continue talking about filing and saws here is that is possible, but with you I see interest in me is bigger than topic.
Please talk about filing and saws, there are other threads we can talk about me in, if you think that is needed, but not here.

 

[Cold Logging]

Magnus, the Silvey Pro Sharp, SDM 4 and Simington 451 . A,B +C are all more adjustable than a chisel file and more repeatable. The burr can be consistently eliminated by giving the top angle of the stone a light buff dress and not feeding the tooth into the stone too fast.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

 

[Jed]

Ahhhhhh... MAN! I want a grinder!

 

[Magnus]

Magnus, the Silvey Pro Sharp, SDM 4 and Simington 451 . A,B +C are all more adjustable than a chisel file and more repeatable. The burr can be consistently eliminated by giving the top angle of the stone a light buff dress and not feeding the tooth into the stone too fast.

These models I have not run. I have no experience of square grinders. They can't be found here.
Burr is same problem regardless of machine I tried. It has more to do with handling, disc and metals as you say.
Dressing disc is not just to keep it clean and prevent heat is is to shape as well. This is not always easy as most don't see what shape they want on stone....

A grinder is better in some way's, but not as adjustable. That is the main reason people have problems with filing, they are too adjustable/flexible.
If you have one tooth that should get a bit more attention than the others and you missed this when you set it up you either have to run it another round or leave it until next time.

Everyone talk about consistency and importance of uniform teeth, but that is of no importance if they don't cut. If they all look the same, they must all be able to cut. To know what result is to be is the hardest to learn, regardless if you are running grinders or filing.
I found it harder to learn how to run grinders than to file.

 

[Tucker943]

If I tell you the angles for optimum cutting, are they useful if you can't consistently make them?

 

[Magnus]

Please do.

 

[Tucker943]

You missed the point. Shocking.

Let me step it down a whisker.

The box that a chain comes in states the best angle according to the manufacturer.
If the buyer reads the box, he/she now knows as much as the next person.
Is that knowledge of any use if it can't be applied uniformly from tooth to tooth?

 

[flushcut]

I think the two of you need to get together for a beer.




Learning to file takes time and practice and then even more practice and hands on is best typing about it gets lost in translation. I have read many a thread about square filing but I have learned nothing without doing it.

 

[gf beranek]

So true.

 

[Tucker943]

It's all in good sport fellas.

 

[Jed]

Rajan: It's no use... They'd never decide on the kind of beer.

 

[Tucker943]

I say what half the TH'ers are thinking. Trust me. About half of them have come to me to validate that.

 

[HolmenTree]

You missed the point. Shocking.

Let me step it down a whisker.

The box that a chain comes in states the best angle according to the manufacturer.
If the buyer reads the box, he/she now knows as much as the next person.
Is that knowledge of any use if it can't be applied uniformly from tooth to tooth?

What Magnus was saying was all cutters on a loop of chain don't have to be sharpened to the same size.

If only several cutters get rocked out badly you don't need to sharpen all the cutters down to the same size as the damaged ones are after sharpening.
And yes Magnus's cutters are all sharpened to the angles as the box specifies. ...only the length of the cutters top plates don't all have to be equal.

 

[Magnus]

Magnus, the Silvey Pro Sharp, SDM 4 and Simington 451 . A,B +C are all more adjustable than a chisel file and more repeatable. The burr can be consistently eliminated by giving the top angle of the stone a light buff dress and not feeding the tooth into the stone too fast.

More repeatable I get. If you set it it will do its best to do all the same way. Problem is that they are not all the same when you set it up and result will not be the same after either. They can get same size and shape, but the property's of all teeth in a chain is never the same, not even new...

But there is no machine as adjustable as a hand/wrist. This I would really like to see.

Burr is not there to begin with and get created for some reason. It should not be created in first place. Grind or file is no matter. Burr is there when file isn't cutting or grinder isn't grinding. If yo have burr you are not done, it is not very sharp and will not last. Burr will fold in, break off or other wise leave a unwanted edge.
Usually the burr is chrome plating that is on tooth that has not been grind or filed off as the stone or file is not cutting properly.
This can be for several reasons most common is temps, then it is vibrations, condition of grind wheel/file, operator skills and more.

 

[Magnus]

You missed the point. Shocking.

Let me step it down a whisker.

The box that a chain comes in states the best angle according to the manufacturer.
If the buyer reads the box, he/she now knows as much as the next person.
Is that knowledge of any use if it can't be applied uniformly from tooth to tooth?

No, I didn't miss the point. you offered to state the perfect optimal angles and I said yes, please. I would really like to see that.

To me optimal angles is set by several parameters as saws power, model of chain, type of cutter, the woods structure, type of wood/fibre and a hole lot of other things.
As I said earlier I don't find the rek. angles to be optimal for the wood I cut most.

If you have 3 cutters that is not sharp, one has 30 degree angle, one 25, one 32.. Angle will not matter!

If you have 5 teeth with different length of cutter they will cut the almost the same if they have same depth guage setting. Exeption is the one with less tooth, it will fit more fiber and cut longer.

 

[Magnus]

Learning to file takes time and practice and then even more practice and hands on is best typing about it gets lost in translation. I have read many a thread about square filing but I have learned nothing without doing it.

There is no way around this. It is just a lot of practice needed regardless if you use file or grinder.
To know what to aim for, what goal to have is the hardest for most I met. They don't know things can be improved or how to do it.
Interest is very important, without it you stand still and it will not try to improve.

There is no upper limit to how good it can get.