Cold weather starting

[cory]

My morbark chipper always used to start easy like a car in all but the most extreme cold, turn the key and go. This past summer, like an idiot, I ran it out of fuel. After refueling it just would not start. Tried many things. (Months later I learned the lift pump (brings fuel from tank to engine) was very weak which explains the refusal to restart.) I was desperate to get it started due to huge workload. Finally got a mechanic to come out and look at it. Long story short he said the only way to get it started is using starter fluid. I wasn't good with that but he said it is fine, he does it all the time without problems. Eventually I said ok. It turned over for at least 30 seconds using the starter fluid before it started. That seemed brutal but it ran perfect, as usual, thereafter…..Until cold weather set in this fall. Wouldn't start one cold AM, I called a good mechanic this time, told him the backstory. He said NEVER use starting fluid, it burns up the corner of the top ring causing loss of static compression. He said to use silicone spray, the volatile propellent will get the engine started and the silicone will afford some lubricity. It worked fine and has ever since. At least it brings cold weather cranking to a minimum.

What do y'all think of this, other than NEVER let a diesel run out of fuel, and NEVER let a grubby mechanic near your prized machinery.

 

[squisher]

I'm not sure what you're describing. The lift pump has been replaced and now it's still hard starting? All filters are good and new? I plug my stuff in in the cold and it all starts real easily.

I guess what I'm getting at is if it was a easy starter in the cold before, something must be wrong still to cause it to be hard starting now.

 

[squisher]

I use no sprays in the intake on any of my equipment. I've used ether many times on logging equipment in the woods.

 

[cory]

No electricity to plug it in, except occasionally at a curtsy's house overnite. All filters new. What is wrong is that I allowed a dingbat mechanic to "burn up" the top ring in engine by using starting fluid, causing loss of compression, causing poor cold weather starting, according to my new mechanic.

 

[cory]

Mechanic says many older engines can handle it cuz they are built heavier, some are even meant to use ether. But newer engines are more finely tuned and should never have ether, according to him.

 

[Husabud]

WD-40 or heat from a propane torch works great for me. I used to start an OLD JD track loader with ether all the time. Finally it was a no go.
Never starting fluid.

 

[squisher]

I follow ya now Cory. I've never heard of using silicone spray myself. I'd try running full synthetic oil for easier cold starts if you're not already. Maybe even a 0w-40 or something.

 

[squisher]

I've heard the same thing that your mechanic said about ether working alright for some motors.

 

[Dave Shepard]

The only time you really shouldn't use ether is when you have glow plugs in the engine. While I agree it should be avoided, it isn't as bad as people make it out to be. The best thing to do to avoid having to use ether is to keep everything in top condition. Good batteries, battery cables/connections, cut fuel with additive and clean fuel filters. Ether may not be great for an engine, but a lot of cranking without starting isn't good either. People talk about an engine becoming addicted to ether, but that is really just an engine that has a bad fuel supply, batteries etc. A weak starter could also cause hard starting in the winter. Propane may be a safer alternative to ether. We have many old tractors with ether assist right from the factory.

 

[FireFighterZero]

What engine does your chipper have? Does it have a pre heat feature on it? A lot of newer engine will use a grid style manifold heater that looks a lot like a Mass Air Flow sensor. I have seen people use ether when the batteries are cold and the machine wont start. If the machine has a manifold heater the ether will ruin it, as it combusts in the intake manifold. The engine is probably not equipped with glow plugs as most newer diesels do not have pre combustion chambers. If the engine does not have a pre heat, I would have the batteries tested as even a slight change in cranking speed can cause the engine not to start in cold weather. If you are using No. 1 diesel, consider adding some winter additive to it any way, the additive will improve cetane numbers to make cold starting easier.
I have heard people use WD 40 and it seems to work, acting as an upper cylinder lubricant as well. Most ether today will also have upper cylinder lube too. In really cold weather, the torch trick works great. It heats the oil and the water and warms up batteries, depending where they are. The benefit of warm oil is faster lubrication to the bearings. Just because the light goes out or the gauge reads decent pressure, the cold oil is not doing the same job as warmer oil.
I have seen engines develop an ether dependency but only after prolonged liberal use, never after one use. The thing to remember is that if an engine is injecting diesel the rings will be getting some lubrication while you give her a snort of ether. When an engine is not injecting diesel and ether is used anyway because the tank is empty and no one has checked, the ether can damage the rings.
Today's diesel is so dry that it does not hurt to run additive all year long for lubricity. The sulfur was taken out and that has not been good for injection parts.

 

[FireFighterZero]

Crap. It took me so long to write my reply Mr. Sheppard answered! I promise I was not copying you!

 

[cory]

Agreed, re having the machine in perfect working order. It is, full-time. The only fly in the ointment was running it out of fuel last summer, a weak lift pump and then using ether to get it restarted.

 

[FireFighterZero]

If the fuel system was not properly bled, starting with ether can be a bad thing, as no diesel is being injected. What engine do you have? Does it have a manifold heater?

 

[cory]

I have seen engines develop an ether dependency but only after prolonged liberal use, never after one use. The thing to remember is that if an engine is injecting diesel the rings will be getting some lubrication while you give her a snort of ether. When an engine is not injecting diesel and ether is used anyway because the tank is empty and no one has checked, the ether can damage the rings.

I think you've got it here in a nut shell. FTR, the tank was full but not enough fuel was being delivered to the engine, hence the long snort of ether.

 

[Reddog]

Sounds like the lack of fuel from the lift pump took out your injector pump. Happens all the time when the lift pump fails or tank is run dry.

Ether is fine in any thing that doesn't have pre heaters or glow plugs.

 

[cory]

Injector pump is good. Machine runs perfect, starts perfect in temps above +/- 30*F, but doesn't start in cold weather.

 

[Reddog]

There is no injector pump made that can be run out of fuel and not have some damage to the internals.
Why do you think all the maintenance manuals on pump replacement tell you to prime the system before starting.

And when you say good, you took it off sent it in and it was tested? Or because it starts at some point it is still good in your view.

Also have you compression checked it? That will tell you if the rings/valves are going.
Injectors wear also changing the spray pattern, that affects cold weather starting.

 

[1BUS]

What engine is in it? Does it have an intake heater or glow plugs? I try to never use ether or anything else for that matter but sometimes it can't be avoided, it's hard for me to believe one time would do enough damage in the combustion chamber to cause a cold start problem. But I guess anything is possible.

 

[squisher]

All you guys that are knowledgeable on diesels I'm surprised no one has mentioned the oil too. I swapped this year to full synthetic in everything and my starts are noticeably easier. What are y'all's thoughts on oil. Has anyone else noticed much of a difference or not?

Just interested to know is all.

 

[brendonv]

Cory,

Have you considered installing quick connects on the chipper and your small flatbed gmc? I guess you can T into the heat supply line on the truck, install a QD, install a quick connect on the chipper fluids line. That way you can go to the yard, connect to two and it will circ. hot coolant into the chipper while your other machines are warming up. I read that they do this all the time with skidders.

Like you I've never used ether, never bought a bottle, nothing. Luckily I can stretch a cord and plug them in, though they all seem to start eventually without the extra help.

On the other hand. What about starting the bucket truck/chipper truck, running a flex pipe from the exhaust, put it on high idle then dump that exhaust into the engine bay of the chipper. Will warm it up in there a bit and would cost you virtually nothing but the pipe.

Or a solar panel hung in that big oak, somehow rigged to a battery then the block heater. Though I'm thinking you need some juice for the heater, so not sure that would work.


I don't know, just things I've been thinking since our convo that day...

 

[PCTREE]

Years ago I used to keep all my gear away from my home so couldn't plug it in. Man it used to stress me out so bad knowing that every morning I would have to get my old ass chipper fired up. Always wanted to rig a system like Brendon explained by running coolant from my car through the chippers motor and warm out up. Never knew there was such a thing till now... Have to google it

 

[stig]

This is what we use on all our company cars/trucks:

http://www.webasto.com/us/

 

[Reddog]

I swapped this year to full synthetic in everything and my starts are noticeably easier.

All I run is mobil or chevron full synthetic in any thing with a 4 stroke motor.

 

[Reddog]

You can rig these with quick connects and use it as a portable heater also.

http://www.engineblockheater.net/propane.html

 

[1BUS]

Has anyone tried wiring a power inverter to there truck and use an electric dip stick to heat the engine oil? It's not ideal but a little better than nothing. About the oil, I have no experience with synthetic diesel oil, the cost is to high to run in my own 7.3L truck, which runs good. I can say I would recommend only manufacture weight and grade oil and would not run any of the "light weight" synthetic diesel oils I've seen on the market. I have no doubt you can fix a hard start or a skip especially on a oil fired injection system with an oil change, I've done it myself many times. The most important thing is to do your maintenance on a regular basis, and don't forget to include idle hours and running your buckets not just the mileage.