CHAIN-SERTS (Replaceable Tooth Saw Chain!!!)

[Rob Shaffer]

Hey Everyone,
Just want to get some information out for anyone using saw chain. We have a replaceable tooth carbide saw chain. We are the ONLY manufacturers of this type of product in the world. NEVER SHARPEN AGAIN!!! Its a carbide tipped insert that attaches to the chain. Its been 10 years of development and testing to get to this point and finally, they are available to the public. We currently have 3/4 (.750) ready to go, 404 will be launching next year followed by 3/8. Feel free to post any comments, all feedback welcome good, bad or indifferent.

Rob Shaffer
CHAIN-SERTS
(859) 640-0375

Check Us out at: www.chain-serts.com
On Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/ChainSerts/
On Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chain+serts&oq=chain+serts&gs_l=youtube.12..35i39.627.3430.0.5522.11.9.0.0.0.0.272.1045.5j3j1.9.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.YAiy8Z0Enc8

 

[woodworkingboy]

Shouldn't .325" chain be added to the poll?

Rob, welcome to the Treehouse. Thanks for posting your new product, good luck with it.

I feel compelled to ask something. The carbide insert brazed cutters that are currently on the market for regular saws, are too slow cutting for general tree work, in my opinion. Not saying that there isn't a place for them with some special application aspects of the work, but as an everyday general use chain, the slower speed is too much a liability. I think that for most professionals, that aspect would be a large concern. Is there something about your chains that is an improvement on that? Hope you don't mind my being honest about what I have experienced with carbide chains so far. Perhaps your chains are designed more for mechanized equipment, I'm not really sure what market you are targeting?

Not knocking carbide per say, it is a great innovation, but in all of the woodworking applications that I can think of where it has come into use for very good reasons, it has never been as fast cutting as the more traditional tool steel.

Jay

 

[Rob Shaffer]

Jay, thanks for your post, and honesty, its very welcomed, trust me!! Currently we are in the mechanized market, till our 404 comes out next year. As far as cutting speed goes, your partially correct on your assumption. More common chain does cut pretty fast out of the box, but dulls quickly and follows a degenerative curve especially in aggressive environmental conditions. We have engineered some key points on our product that put us in a more competitive position. Our carbide is tougher, we have better braise process, and we grind to a full chisel which keeps our chain sharper much longer than other chains. Id just like to add, one of our first chains in the market has been cutting since June and is currently over 500,000 board feet, hes replaced 3 teeth to date. The best we have done so far is 350,000 board feet without touching the chain. I hope this helps answer your question, if it doesn't, please let me know and I'll try to do better.

 

[sawinredneck]

I never said it in the other thread, but I really have concerns about when one of those cutters breaks off. Will it then get stuck in the wood and break/dull the other cutters on the chain? How would you get it out of the tree/wood?
I'd be interested in some 3/8's, but would like to know pricing and cutting speed before I'd be much more interested,

 

[Jack]

I bought a carbide chain, *once*, many years ago. I had exactly the problem you described, Andy. One tooth came off and it broke every other tooth on that side. $125 gone in one revolution ... BUMMER! Never bought another. I know it's a freak incident and small sample set, but enough for me. Sharpening ain't so bad in comparison. I share your concern.

 

[Rob Shaffer]

Hey sawinredneck, ANY cutting tool can break or shatter, ours is a lot tougher than most because through material selection, but still, steel can reach a yield point on a stress strain curve and it doesn't take much more pressure after that to cause a break. That said, we have been testing this product through the toughest conditions possible that we could think of to make sure that our chain works. Last think that someone wants is to buy a chain and then spend a bunch of time removing pieces of steel from wood to continue work. we have hundreds of thousands of board feet cut on slashers, harvesters, (customized chainsaws we made that carry 3/4 chain but I didn't just say that, the 3/4 is NOT designed to go on a handheld) and we have NEVER had any issues with cutters coming off. We have used the highest level of engineering availiable to create optimum radius size and thickness to ensure that we don't even experience stress cracking. For pricing, our 3/4 is $5.95 per driver, we don't have pricing on 404 or 3/8 because it hasn't been launched yet. We'll have a better idea of pricing early next year.

 

[sawinredneck]

It's Andy here, but being an ex-machinist, I'm all to aware of what it takes to cut out carbide, from ANYTHING! And you are talking about carbide, not steel for the cutting tooth!

 

[woodworkingboy]

My experience with carbide chain losing cutters, is that it tends to happen as the chain gets used, rather than when new. I assume the brazed joint can weaken over time. I don't think the carbide broke, except at the joint. With cutters that get replaced and not sharpened and repeatedly used, i think the breakage problem would be of lesser concern, and as Rob has indicated is the case with his chain.

 

[Rob Shaffer]

great discussion, thanks for your comments. We do own the machine shop that builds chainserts have have been in that buissness for decades, so I understand what your saying sawinredneck, my necks pretty red too so I dig your handle. I think what I want to say here is two things. 1.) these things have been tested to the hilt, theres no concern at all for the cutters coming loose or the carbide separating from the cutters. and 2.) We are always open to testing other methods to make sure our product is the highest quality possible, we have cut almost every tree we could get our hands on both muddy and icy in the dead of winter in great volumes, we have even cut huge volumes of railroad ties with the nails still in them and accidentally cut through one of those metal plates... and still kept cutting for the remainder of the week. we piled mud on top of trees and cut, anything we could think of to test our product. If you have some additional idea, shoot it to me and I'll have our testers in the field run it through the ringer. On a side note, if anyone would like to get their hands on some samples, and I mean anyone, just send me your address, I'll send you a free sample segment with cutter and you can check it out. But the key point again on this topic, we have not seen ANY issue to date with cutters coming off the chain, or carbide separating from the insert in any way. tesing on the 404 is going well also.

 

[sawinredneck]

OK, Rob, a few examples I have personally come across,
32" bar in a 36" Silver Maple stump, ALAPing it, it was full of nails, I had to file the chain six times to get through the stump! It was like someone dumped a box of nails and the tree grew around them, sucked them up as it grew!
I used to cut in a lot of sandy soil, and with the mini skid steer, I would try and ALAP each tree, both for volume and ground clearance for the skid steer. Now the 3/8's chain it's not as much a problem, but the .325", the sand in the base of the tree would eat it alive!
Then others on this site have hit, railroad spikes, concrete, car parts, old bicycles, and so on!
As I said, my background was mainly machining, so you hit something of that nature it's a bad day! You hit something of that nature, leave chunks of carbide in the stump and ruin a $125 chain, as well as all the other chains trying to get the tree down, as well as possibly creating an even more unsafe tree fell that you already had!
Please don't get me wrong, I'm a glass half full (at best) type of person! I've had to cut out HSS cutters with carbide in work hardened Titanium in the past. I've also had to chisel carbide out of the same mess! I'd much rather deal with HSS given the choice!

 

[stig]

I can see that working out really well for mechanical harvesters.
Those rely as much on force as on sharpness for cutting.
Since they are rapidly putting fallers out of business, it is a growing market, too.

 

[flushcut]

I like the idea of this chain but I don't think it is a product for tree guys, harvester type equipment absolutely.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Rob, perhaps you could do the math.... Say if someone was using your chain, 3/8"- 72 drive links, and replacing the cutters every two weeks, what would be the original cost plus additional cost every two weeks? Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Rob Shaffer]

woodworkingboy, We don't have actual data for 3/8 chain yet, but we do for 3/4 so let me use that as an example since I have actual data.

The chain cost would be $428.40 (includes full set of cutters) + most people buy pack of 10 replacements ($38.90) = $467.30 total initial cost.

Keep in mind that this is for a very large 3/4 pitch chain that runs on slashers and harvesters. one this investment has been made, you only need to replace cutters on an "as needed" basis. Companies save an average of 5-6 hours per week on downtime which makes them very happy, more time cutting, more trucks down the road.

Just to give you an idea of the replacement rate. Our current statistics, again for people using the 3/4 chain, from June of this year to today is about 5-10 changed teeth per chain on average, so in 6 months, with no sharpening has yielded only about 2 hours of downtime. Only the companies using our product can put a cost on their downtime because they are all structured exactly the same, but you can imagine 5-6 hours per week *machine rate take into account labor costs to touch up/swap out chain, cost for back up chain(s) and cost for hard sharpening, it adds up quick. You Tube has some of our testimonial video, just search chain serts if your interested.

I would expect much lower initial cost on a 3/8 chain, but we just don't have those costs yet. We would however, expect to see the same trend with severely reduced downtime and long life of the cutter and chain.
Does that somewhat answer what your asking?

 

[HolmenTree]

Rob, from what I see you have a great product there. I can guarantee Blount/Oregon will make you an offer to buy you out (if they haven't already done so) as they have already bought ICS Diamond chain and others.
When you do introduce a .375 chisel carbide chain or even the .404, I can see a lot of arborist tree service companies running it on their ground saws. From looking at the "good" aggressive side plate angles on the 3/4" this chain should b no slouch in the speed dept.
Just one bag of spare cutters replacing rolls of regular sawchain, files, grinding discs, time wasted sharpening and spinning loops of chain.
Just recently I bought a big inventory of old Oregon 73D chipper chain that a dealer couldn't sell
. I bought this chain to replace my chisel chains on my ground saws from frustration I got from how regular chisel chain can't hold a decent edge in my line of treework. The chipper cuts slower then the chisel but it's toughness outshines any speed lost.

I can see your chisel carbide cutting faster then the chipper chain and the maintenance capabilities it has to offer.
Just like how my Greenteeth stump grinder teeth with its separate tooth to pocket system that has greatly enhanced my grinder from the old style one piece tooth and pocket.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Gonna be wishing I had a 36" loop of it today for sure.
I agree with Willard. When you need it you need it. All the properties up here were mined or ranched. All kinds of metal and goodies in trees.
Replaceable cutters is why I would even have it on hand. Still have not bought any as I can't sharpen it or find anyone local that can.
Could have easily added more money, had I had some on the shelf that would fit my 066, to the job we are on now

 

[SouthSoundTree]

Hi Rob,

As you will see if you look around, products get passed around for trial and reports, from one THer to the next. There are many lurkers who look, but don't post. This demo feedback is a big plus to a manufacturer, IMO, as the people from the forum go to trade shows and talk to people, and they tell two friends, and they tell two friends, etc, etc.

Sending along a review book/ notebook is a good move, IMO.

Good luck with your products.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I figure that if you reduce the cost of Rob's chain by a third when the 3/8" is offered, both initial cost and cutter replacement sets, compared to what the 3/4" currently runs, if you are using 72DL full comp for example, the initial purchase plus one full set of replacements (around 24 cutters), that cost would be about the equivalent of 17 standard chains at $20.00 per chain (Baileys standard not on sale cost for pre made loops). Changing the cutters completely every two weeks is going to be the equivalent of another three standard chains per replacement period. Over a 48 week year, again replacing cutters each two weeks, your costs would amount to around 70 standard chains. The fist year at that rate of replacement, including initial purchase cost, you are looking at the equivalent of around 87 standard chains. Obviously meaningless figures because we don't know the price of the smaller pitch carbide chain, and there are a number of variables, but to give an idea.... Hope my math is reasonably correct, I only had to take algebra twice to get an A- in it.

Given the slower cutting speed of carbide chain, even when new compared to regular chisel, I wonder to what degree hitting metal or anything else, even just wood, how quickly that is going to dull the chain and further reduce cutting speed. I question whether most professionals are going to be happy with continually reducing cut speed until it gets to replacing. I think that Rajan's point that a harvester and a standard chainsaw have somewhat different requirements, is likely a very valid one.

 

[Rob Shaffer]

thanks for the math problem woodworkingboy, I still hate these like I did back in school, ha ha. Like I said we, don't have actuals yet, but using the data we do have from 3/4 pitch chain, you wouldn't be replacing ALL the cutters every two weeks. I don't know what the interval will be for 404 chain, but everyone running the 3/4 in average conditions are changing about 1-2 cutters a month at the most. check this video out, this guy has been running since June of this year, that's about 6 months ago, he has replaced less than 5 teeth. He demonstrates his confidence in our cutters very well in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIuktTLuPvA

 

[Rob Shaffer]

Hey Sean, Totally agree with you. Thank You for your comment. Ive posted our stuff on many areas on the web, this fourm has been the best in terms of great open discussion and quality of information. Lots of great experience and really cool people here. Big shout out to Butch for pretending he likes me enough to let me chat with all you great folks!!!

 

[MasterBlaster]

 

[woodworkingboy]

The reason i was figuring into my equation, total replacement of the cutters, is because with regular chain, unless you have hit something other than wood, all of the cutters seem to dull at a similar rate. I was thinking that with carbide it would be similar. Two weeks use before needing to replace was an arbitrary time period, but I think that somewhere Rob mentioned that, but I don't recall in what context. With harvesters, if chain has lost sharpness, I would imagine there is less of an objection to replacing a few cutters that have been more seriously damaged, than with a regular saw, where once again total sharpness or close to it is desired for better efficiency. i keep throwing cutting speed out there as a concern, but perhaps Rob's carbide doesn't dull under normal cutting conditions? That would be great.

 

[Rob Shaffer]

Im going to look into the cutting speed concern a little more before I answer this one, I have to admit, Dave and Jenn (who are the inventors of this product) has deeper information sometimes than I do. The design of the cutter is unique to keep speed, but im not sure of the detail. Our cutters do get sharper at first over the cutting period first, then the sharpness goes down slightly over a long period of time. Sorry for the lack of info on this one, good question, I'll follow up.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Rob, have to say that your honesty about your chain speaks more for your good intentions and possibilities with your product, than all the hyper bs one often gets about so called world changing new innovations. You definitely deserve a high degree of success with what you are working on. I feel kind of bad about the skepticism, I don't want to mean it as that, just that the needs of people cutting wood for a living are pretty specific, so questions arise. You seem like a real cool guy, very interested in the real advantages to your potential customers. Hoorah for your approach!

 

[mastermind7864]

I think the skepticism simply stems from users of chainsaws knowing how fast we expect the chain to cut. In the past carbide chain has always been very slow cutting.

That said, I would love to be able to test a loop of this .404 when it is available.