Can Tree Roots Breach A Heavy Plastic Liner?

lxskllr

lxskllr

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The willow cutting I'm doing on the farm is partly cause the boss is afraid the tree roots will punch through the pond liner. There's a decently sized willow that would look good if it stayed. My contention is tree roots won't get through the plastic, and the tree should stay. I don't know how thick the liner is, but it's industrial plastic that gets used in landfills. Heavy as shit. I helped install it ~20 years ago.

So, what does Treehouse think?
 
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  • #7
Though I'm convinced by the uniform agreement that roots will breach plastic, I'm not convinced by that pic.

My thoughts on it were roots break rock and masonry by exploiting flaws. They start working on a crack, make the crack bigger, then their buddies join in and break it up. With plastic, there's no flaws to work against. To go through it, it would have to be brute forced. Plastic is also flexible. In a case like that heaved sidewalk, plastic would just move out of the way. Bad for a walking surface, but only a minor nuisance for a pond.
 
You are giving credence to plastic and not the persistence of a willow tree and the test of time.
 
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  • #9
Perhaps. That's why I asked. It would be interesting to setup a test bed. If I had more room and more time, that's something I might be interested in doing.
 
I'm on the breach first too.
When roots grow, it's by the very tip which is very weak but is able to sneak in every little crevice. After all, it's their job to explore the ground. Then the diameter growth cames in play and this time, it's like a jack. Tiny at first, but more and more strong as the contact area increases. The cells can develop an inside pressure up to 200psi by osmotic pumps and that's what they can oppose to any obstacle. The sidewalk taken by the underside stands no chance at all. But a continuous surface (like metal, plastic or good concrete) forces the root's tip to turn away. After that, the root's side pushes against the surfaces, slowly but powerfully. Inverted tug of war. Unlike the concrete, the plastic/rubber membrane is souple enough to give room to the root's diameter growth without breaking. If there's a defect though, like a bad seam, a puncture from a stone, a wood chunk or a rodent's shew, you can bet that the roots will find it /them and go through.
 
Not disagreeing with the many folks who know far greater than I. I see roots in sewers all the time. They get in through the tiniest opening. In a perfectly sealed pvc sewer, they seem to stay out. I have seen a large oak in Florida (shallow sewers) completely distort a 4” pvc sewer main. It bent that pipe up to the point of clogging but there were no penetrations. I couldn’t believe what I saw on the sewer camera. I passed on the excavation and repair as it was about 3’ away from a 3’ dia oak and just too much of a hassle. A coworker did the job and I went to check it out. He cut a ton of large roots out with a Home Cheapo rent a saw getting a replacement chain every couple cuts. No one thought about the impact on the tree unfortunately.
 
Depending on the soil type below the liner, it can cause some real havoc. Here in the land of the desert sun, especially up here on the high plateau, our ground is very hard, being as most of it is a several hundred million year old sea bed. I've seen roots grow between the hardpan left when the pond was dug, and the liner, as described by others, then their diameter increases and eventually the liner fails.
 
One thing to consider @lxskllr regarding cutting that willow...you'll be unlikely to kill it by simple basal pruning :). It will resprout, most likely, and those roots will continue to threaten the pond liner. Willow is hard to get rid of, at least the native willows around here are.
 
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  • #14
Yea, I've thought of that. I bought the boss a Fiskars hooked machete two years ago, and figured he could keep up with sprout maintenance pretty easily if he keeps up with it.

My uneducated thinking on the matter says that a tree trying to sprout new limbs to stay alive will neglect spreading roots til it gets greenery established, and then it can devote resources to roots. Is that anywhere close to being on base?
 
Burnham said:
One thing to consider @lxskllr regarding cutting that willow...you'll be unlikely to kill it by simple basal pruning :). It will resprout, most likely, and those roots will continue to threaten the pond liner. Willow is hard to get rid of, at least the native willows around here are.
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Copper is your friend here. Tack a penny or piece of copper flashing to the cut surface of the stem and it will die off.
 
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  • #16
I could split the top with an axe, then drive a penny in sideways.
 
stikine said:
Copper is your friend here. Tack a penny or piece of copper flashing to the cut surface of the stem and it will die off.
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If that's true, why is this oak tree still alive? I installed a lightning protection system in this tree nearly 30 years ago. There are about 75 copper standoffs nailed into it. This is just one of many that I've done over the years.
IMG_4161.jpg IMG_4162.jpg
 
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  • #18
Well, we'll find out. I've heard of the copper thing before. It'll only cost several cents to test it, and leave some alone as a control group to see if there's a difference between them. I guess I'll have to split some and add a penny. Split others and do nothing else, or maybe add a steel washer, then leave some completely alone.
 
Mellow said:
If that's true, why is this oak tree still alive? I installed a lightning protection system in this tree nearly 30 years ago. There are about 75 copper standoffs nailed into it. This is just one of many that I've done over the years.
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I'm not sure. It's quite effective on willow and alder when they are cut and the copper is applied afterwards.
 
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  • #21
I was wondering about that. Any effect would have to happen before the cladding wore off. I could do both. I happen to have a fairly large cache of 100% copper pennies. I drop them in a can when I take particular notice. They're worth more than 1¢ in raw material. I use them to make durable washers on occasion. I use crappy pennies when it doesn't matter as much. Wheat pennies and anything else unusual go in the collection can.

Does anyone have any interest in this project? It's a small pond, so my test subjects are limited, but I can do some playing with stuff that doesn't involve chemicals. To pull a number out of my ass, there may be a half dozen willow clusters. I figure each cluster should be considered as a single unit. Any suggestions on things to try? Preferably easy, cheap, and easy to source.
 
One day loml & I were at her dads house, went in the basement for something....I happened to glance at the sump punp crock and noticed white "mane" hanging out of the clay pipe...wtf?
Reached in and pulled out a handfull of roots.
He had Ewes planted around the house, they have a root system from heII and even though trimmed had reached the butt joint clay perimeter drain.

House was sold after his passing, first thing the new owners did was remove the Ewes.....lol

Ed
 
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  • #25
Treeaddict said:
How about drilling a 3/8” hole or holes and adding chelated copper solution? It won’t harm the fish but don’t spill any either.
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Looks like VT has a problem with the commercial preparations. I wonder why?
 
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