Butt tying or....?

I have nothing to say, except how I am so oblivious to the world outside my immediate surroundings. Gorgeous!
Scary how much we think alike on so many things, Brendon. My thoughts exactly.

But I'm going to offer my two cents anyway because I'm like that. I think your plan is sound and I agree with Burnham that the proximity of the stone entrance is intimidating. I also agree that it could kick when it hits the ground due to the sweep in the trunk. A chain above your notch and secured to the tree next to it may help but it may not as well.

IMO I would put the chain on it, cut off that stray branch from the other tree and then put it on the ground. Plan your work and then work your plan.

Also, I want to thank you for taking the time to record the tour of the temple. I played the video on full screen and thoroughly enjoyed it. Felt like I was walking along side you. :)
 
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Thanks a lot for the thoughts, really pleased that you guys enjoyed the vid.

The video gives a somewhat congested view of the top with the adjacent trees, I believe the top is pretty clear when it would begin to go over. I need to take a good look at that again pertaining to the top breaking out as well, if I hadn't considered it adequately. I think the tree would be well into it's fall before encountering much that might break or hang it up, likely will drive through. Looks like it died from the Pine Beetle infestation. in which case since the tree hasn't been dead that long, I assume the top is pretty sound. The crane operator is coming by my shop today, and I'll get him to take a look at it. We do a lot of give and take, so even if i don't hire him to do a pick, he will give his fair perspective. I'd hire him to do the pulling, maybe move the logs, some pocket money that he likes.

I have some 5/8" or 3/4" stable braid that I've barely used, what I was thinking to use for the butt. Minimum eight tons breaking strength. It would be tough to find anything much stronger in these parts. The cable i have is only 10mm, pulling with 12mm. I think 10mm is in the neighborhood of 5000 lbs breaking strength. Chain I could get a hold of. The trees slightly ahead and to the opposite side could give an ideal tie off point, be able to snug up to them and still have slack when the tree goes over. No hurry to come up with a plan on this job, but I have to give an estimate today so the temple overseers can chew on it. I know someone offered to cut the tree in exchange for the log, but that isn't the ideal for the temple. The job is mine if I want to go for it, which I do.
 
That stable braid is going to lose 30-40 percent break strength at the knots...just a reminder, I know you know that.
 
.... Looks like it died from the Pine Beetle infestation. in which case since the tree hasn't been dead that long, I assume the top is pretty sound...

I was wondering if you knew what caused the pine to die. Jay, I know nothing of your trees or bugs that attack them but when a pine in my area dies from a beetle infestation it will often pitch-out. The loss of protective resins combined with the introduced blue stain fungus from the beetles is almost guaranteed to cause rapid weakening and brittleness in the top of these pines.
In the forest, fire-killed trees will stand until they are weatherd and gray and are as likely to fall over in one piece as not. Beetle-killed trees, on the other hand, often snap 30' to 40' up in a strong wind.
Many of the beetle-killed trees we remove have pretty good holding wood at the hinge but are total crap on top.

Dave
 
I find that often I will not climb above 6-8" of wood in a beetle kill on our ponderosa or grey pine for that reason. Brittle as all get out.
So call me <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UhEQ1E8XPp4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
If you're going to take an alley shot I'd get a set of gunning sticks on that thing and make damned sure the hinge is right on the money .If you put an open face on it it should hold clear to the ground .
 
I usually stop short of relying on an open face to hold for long in softwoods like pine, especially dead pine.
Hardwoods are a different story.
If it isn't dead that long and not beetle-dead-dry, you could also drop off the top and jump the trunk off a slightly taller stump to give it some carry room; then again, that could introduce a bit more 'bounce'...
 
Bodean needs to pipe in here...I remember a video he did awhile back where they butt tied a big log (euc?) to control the butt at the stump. It snapped that rope like it was dental floss...I think it was a 5/8" rope (or was it cable?). That sweep could generate a lot of cranking leverage that could be hard to control it seems to me.

Very good video tour, very stable camera work. Usually walking video is too shaky.
 
Well you know it is a problem .You either have to launch that thing so it clears the stump or control it if it hangs on .

I suppose a humbolt would launch it but now would it bounce back or sideways if it hit the top of another tree on the fall ?
 
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Very interesting thought on the beetle kill, Dave. The ones that I have removed, appeared to have been standing dead for a pretty long time, shortly after the prefecture cut loose some tax revenue to remove the trees to help prevent further infestation. A waste of money, imo, but that's another discussion. We have had this infestation problem for quite a number of years, spreading throughout the country. I was under the impression that the trees died quite quickly after the beetles arrived, at least with what we have here. I will take your thoughts as a cautionary, definitely look further into it. As I mentioned, the priest said the top was green up to a year ago.

I did give a bid and got the job, but something about the temple's funds unable to be freed up until the job is done after the middle of next month, requires a bit of a wait before doing the work. Taking a good look at the situation again today, Dave's perceptive assessment about the tree possibly getting hung up does seem a real valid concern. Not immediately, but there is a fair amount of side lean that would likely cause drift into the far row of trees. It might scrape by, but..... Taking out the top before falling it would be prudent, if safe to do. Some more time to think about it.... That species of Pine is pretty resilient, I have pulled many with back lean, using the cut a little pull a little method. They do ok. Drier wood far less ok. I'd like to fall it with the lowest cut possible, to take advantage of what people think is going to be quite valuable material. For some reason those old Pines will often have a very red color to the wood, much desirable over the run of the mill yellow that is usually found in the average trees.

Thanks again for the comments, most invaluable to me.
 
I am glad you will have more time for working out the details on this removal. Remember my comment on not knowing the trees or pests in your area? Not all pine beetles cause the pitch-out defensive response. The top of that pine could be crap or it could be hard as nails. Let the experience you have gained, from the work you have done in your area guide you as to which will be more likely.

Also don't forget that if you decide in having the crane assist, and the top is brittle and over the stone work, it can be whittled down in small pieces if that is what is needed, and then the trunk brought down slow and easy.

Dave
 
Dave's post made me think of another option, but I cannot really tell from the video if the geometry of the situation would make it viable or not. Maybe...

If the sound tree to the right of the removal, as viewed from the front side of the gate, is in the right enough place, and if it's sound enough to trust, you might be able to piece out the top of the removal down to where the log you want to save tops out, and tie your bull rope there. Put in the pull rope, too.

Then hang a block at that elevation, or a little higher, in the sound tree. Run the bull rope through that, and down to a porty or bollard at the sound tree's base, or wherever works best to counter an off-line pull angle.

Face the removal with a wide bird's mouth, back cut with stump shot and tension the pull and release the bollard simultaneously until you get the tree committed, and then ease the tree down all the way to the ground with the bull rope. With a sound hinge, you'll get no bounce or kick back...but butt tieing might not hurt anyway in case of roll at the end.

I've done this a couple of times with live Doug fir, to protect an asphalt parking lot...if all pieces are in the right locations, it works well. Two letdown lines with the legs spread 30 or 45 degrees apart, handled well with good communication, can work even better.
 
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Dave, I recall looking into it once. Something about bugs laying eggs and the end results is some fungus or bacteria eventually cutting off the water supply to the tree. I don't believe the wood is much left damaged as an immediate result. I also seem to have heard of some of the infested trees being sent to the mill. Anyway, I will take your thoughts under advisement, definitely worth further study.

Neat idea, Burnham, stored for future use. Yesterday when looking at the tree, the priest came by walking his unruly Labrador. He specified that he wants the tree cut in it's entire length, excluding the top if necessary. It could conceivably be rigged to the large leaner next to it, but higher up there would be quite a spread, and probably not so desirable angles working, plus the length factor. Offhand, that would seem like a lot of tree to manage as you have described. I would guesstimate maybe five or six tons there...? If the priest didn't go skiing so darn much, there might be the funds available for you to jet over for a consultation. While here, just do the job! Dreaming, but wouldn't it be something.

Might still try and sell the priest on having the dead limbs removed off the other large trees, have been noticing more when checking out the job, then have the crane on site for what can be included. The entire tree for a pick might be dicey with the weight, given the 25 ton crane that my guy has. Luck and favorable winds, and a crane, seems a good order, if allowable. Cool spot only five minutes away from me. I can go there and eat my lunch and think on it.
 
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Most Japanese priests, their main activity is funerals. For the one at that temple, skiing and funerals. It's a wealthy temple with a very large "danka" or congregation, the folks that contribute to it's upkeep and the priest's salary, etc. Interestingly, when the temple was reconstructed, most of the timber was from the mountain land directly behind, all owned by the temple. That is a cycle that gets repeated when the land is available. Some huge trees, and a very long term project, I will try and get inside one day to take some photos. Superb carpentry in many respects. I think he said around five million to build the place. Inside is quite elaborate, but tastefully done. The thought occurred to try and get hired on with the traditional temple carpenters there, some skills I could really love to learn, but i had enough to do during that period. I did go by a number of times to se what they were up to. They really took the time to get things right, a much rarer type of carpenter today, rather supreme skills. The crew comes and will spend years on a project.
 
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It looks like you have some great meditation grounds in your area there as well!
 
Jay, this is slightly off topic but it could be of interest and affect how the priests handle the log once it is down.
http://na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/howtos/ht_pinewilt/pinewilt.htm
The pine wilt nematode's primary vector is the pine sawyer and they love to oviposit in fresh downed logs. To test the wood for the presence of the nematode, take a one inch slice off the stump. Break it into a couple off 3" to 4" chunks and soak those in clear water over night. If nematodes are present you should be able to see them in the water with a 10x or greater powered hand lens.

Dave
 
I would not count on any system of guying that monster. with what looks like a significant bend in such a big tree.. its going to bounce and roll and nothing is going to stop that reliably.. Looks like you can get it out past the stone with a well placed and executed cut.. not easy on such a big tree.. If you can throw it far enough forward it'll clear the stone even if it bounces and rolls.. narrow humboldt, not very deep, as high as possible... or play it safe with a crane..
 
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Dave, informative link, thanks. I don't think the priest has anything specific in mind as yet for the log. He said that he wanted me to put it out front on blocks so he could show it off for awhile, and he was going to be contacting a sawmill to learn what their size requirements are for length. The curve in the log will no doubt be a factor. I'd suggest furniture, a big table could be done, but really not much of a good wood for it. No doubt it would have found a use had the temple not been rebuilt yet. Anyway, he can play around with some ideas, he likes to do that kind of thing.

i hadn't heard before of the infestation targeting fresh cut logs. We have large tracts of that species of Pine here, I believe the only one being affected, though I have heard of Oaks being infested by some beetle problem that is spreading. They are knocking themselves out trying to find a use for the wood from the downed trees, so much of it is showing up, and more and more will continue to do so. Traditionally it has been used in construction, but to a much rarer degree than other species. The trees get those curves in the log, which have played an important role as roof rafters, often exposed. Lots of pitch, the large trees were cut and the root balls dug up and drained to help fuel the ships and planes during the war. It's an ongoing joke with me and some guys I often work with, I kid them about trying to defeat us with fuel from trees. We still get a laugh from it, though they did enough damage with that means for sure. A friend has a contract to remove them, which I have helped out at a time or two. The trees are cut, stacked into one meter lengths, brush piled on top, pesticide poured on, then covered with degradable plastic sheeting that has the edges buries under soil. On steep ground which is often the case, not the most enjoyable of jobs. I question the validity of fumigating trees that have often been dead standing a long time before being cut, but that is currently the approach. Some stoves have been designed to specifically burn the pitch laden wood, and current research to use it as fuel in boilers at schools and such, is ongoing. The wood will be very abundant for years to come. i have seen it used via some process where it gets turned into flooring. It looks ok. The infestation moved in here to my area around five years ago, and continues to spread throughout the country. It has become a real problem, except for the people doing the removals. The borer appears to attack the weaker trees, as can be noted at the entrance there where the other Pines don't have the characteristic holes in the bark. That might explain the attraction to downed wood as well. You can see whole hillsides of trees where only a couple have been affected so far. Other places, whole areas have been wiped out.

Daniel, thanks for the input. I believe that as you say, trying to get the log falling as far away from the stone as possible there, seems like a real good idea. That in combination with trying to securely anchor it, is what seems most reliable to me if it comes down to falling it instead of craning it out. Working on a plan.....
 
Because the obstacle is basically an un-replaceable historical structure, you have to 101% sure of your plan.. with that much potential force can you trust the guy system??? consider the value of the rope vs the cost of the crane .. also consider what that rope is going to do to the living trees its anchored to.. Looks like you can still pull it off with a good cut, with the concerns being to make sure you have enough pulling power to get it going to the lay, and that there is not a lot of side weight. A shallow notch, puts the hinge farther forward resulting in more forward motion to get it out past the stone, but of course makes it harder to pull against the back lean. Good luck with it...
 
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