alternatives in land use

[DMc]

....To my mind, grazing is the best method. By far. Huge swaths of land that were only used for cropping can now be used for livestock as well. Thats sustainable IMHO.....

Yes! Kind of flies in the face of the anti beef crowd though doesn't it.

 

[cory]

FTR, I'm a fan of free range beef.

Anywho, the shite is complicated..

 

[DMc]

.... How do you define the limit on population?

It will occur naturally. Liebig's Law of the Minimum, in short the barrel will only hold as much as the shortest stave.

Conversely, what would happen if there was an endless food supply?

 

[FireFighterZero]

I guess you are right Dave, just goes against everything at the heart of a production farmer. I cant fathom it.

I have seen population swings in nature, ups and downs. Feast and famine. Famine is not pretty, and farmers strive to feed all they can.

But what about the fact that we are moving in a direction to be able to produce enough food to support possibly billions more? Are we moving forward in a way that is better for the environment and worse for the environment at the same time?

Sorry for leading you astray Cory, not my intention! There are a lots of ins and outs in this deal.

 

[kevin bingham]

Not really, if stated right. There is a lot of beef production that has rightfully turned people off to it. But the only way is in conjunction with animals and nature not working against it or separate from it. How can grazing not be part of it?

But I think that industrial meat production is leading us to some serious problems and we need to get a handle on it. Industrial grazing has already led us to a crisis over much of the west. Grass was extracted on a industrial level. You can't put to much romance on glory days of ranching either... similar to the glory days of redwood harvesting or whaleing.
That doesn't make me anti beef or anti logging. There are some forces way bigger than the cow at work.

 

[kevin bingham]

The rapid loss of topsoil and Prarie across the midwest and west while not as dramatic as the loss of the forests was everybit as traumatic to the land. We do things on such a big scale and so rapidly that it puts us in a deep hole trying to figure our way out of it.

The things we can't give up and the only thing that can work is our seeds and our animals.

 

[FireFighterZero]

Been to a lot of multi generational ranches?

 

[cory]

Sorry for leading you astray Cory, not my intention! There are a lots of ins and outs in this deal.

Awesome discussion!

The rapid loss of topsoil and Prarie across the midwest and west while not as dramatic as the loss of the forests was everybit as traumatic to the land. We do things on such a big scale and so rapidly that it puts us in a deep hole trying to figure our way out of it.

The things we can't give up and the only thing that can work is our seeds and our animals.

Good post, KB

 

[DMc]

....I have seen population swings in nature, ups and downs. Feast and famine. Famine is not pretty, and farmers strive to feed all they can.....

That's not how it works on a large scale. Famine is an expression of fast changing loss of a food supply. But long term resource limitations curb population by reducing the birthrate until it reaches stability. This can already be seen in world censuses. One of the great tragedies is that large food shipments to impoverished countries breaks this natural birth reduction cycle which leads to famine and pain.

 

[FireFighterZero]

I guess thats why I asked if we are doing the right thing by increasing production. If we get more production off the same amount of land will we be in effect subsidizing a population increase that should not take place?

 

[DMc]

Jim, I think you have a big heart and would gladly carry the troubles others on your shoulders. But you might want to give it a year or two first to see how things go before you start worrying that you might be screwing up the global balance.

 

[FireFighterZero]

Yeah, I know. Just interesting things to think about. I know that I am not going to make much of a global difference, but it is interesting to think about the connection everything has.

Just think about the impact the Green Revolution had on the planet.

 

[kevin bingham]

Been to a lot of multi generational ranches?

Spent a lot of my childhood tagging along with my dad to family operations all around Colorado arizona and new mexico. (He is a holisticator who worked with Allan Savory group or cult as we joke). They, struggling to find a new way foward dealing with less grass and water than their fathers and grandfather's and are trying hard to figure it all out.
The period after the civil war to the late 1800s was a different story and cattle was owned and operated by wall street basically. Not a good Era for grass.
JI'm you are a hero as far as I'm concerned.

 

[cory]

Good article on holisticator

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_83def22f-61cf-5a34-9a7f-9e19024346ac.html

 

[FireFighterZero]

No doubt that mistakes were made in the name of profits, but I would not think that the "free market" should take all the blame.

Well over a 100 years ago the big ranches up here found that sheep and cattle could exist on the same ground, benefiting the ground and animals.

Sorta like the buffalo before that. High intensity/low duration grazing.

 

[Underwor]

I attended a seminar in the ND badlands a few years back that was put on by an extension person stationed at Dickinson State University. He was talking about the High intensity/low duration grazing approach and also comparing it to the bison. It was basically what they suggest for good turf management. Remove only about a third of the plant on each rotation and graze the same area 2 to 3 times a summer. I think this is similar to the approach that the Basque sheepherders have used in the west. By keeping the flock moving you do not overgraze any one area and are able to revisit it later in the season. It was very interesting to me as it was so close to good turf management for lawns.

 

[Underwor]

Here is a link to that grazing handbook. https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/DickinsonRE...e-management-of-grazinglands-grazing-handbook

 

[cory]

Interesting stuff.

I tried for about 15 min to read that grazing handbook link. Written by a Phd. I found it essentially unreable. Probably just me, but are there folks who can read and digest (pun) such reports and learn something from them? The writing is so absurdly dry. I'm all for 'just the facts, ma'am' but reading that stuff is just on a whole other level. Wow.

 

[DMc]

Yeah, Cory. Some tuff reading. This is common though, pouring out reams of papers with lots of repeated sentences on something that could be said with 90% less.

 

[cory]

I was thinking the same thing. Probably bright people with good info to communicate but they need much better writing skills. Just because it is scientific info doesn't mean it couldnt benefit hugely from better delivery. And the poor writing casts a shadow over the validity of the info, for me anyway.

 

[cory]

Wasn't sure where to post this, but it definitely involves alternative land usage re oil exploration vs forest products (that aren't lumber).

http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine...-the-incredible-story-of-lucas-weiss-20160201

 

[Thor's Hammer]

great thread.

 

[pantheraba]

Cory...that was a great read. Hope Weiss can persevere...yoco sounds interesting.

 

[gf beranek]

good read, thanx!!

 

[DMc]

That was a hell of a story. Weiss is an impressive individual that against all odds seems to have found his way. I am concerned about his desire to "crack Yoco's code" and adopt modern propagation and cultivation techniques. Those areas of science are mine fields of misinformation and bad practices largely responsible for our current problems that are slowly coming to light.