Spliced Rigging Rope?

[Brock Mayo]

Just wondering how many folks prefer to have an eye splice in the end of their rigging lines? I've always felt that adding a metal clip of some sort during negative rigging was asking for trouble but I see it quite a bit these days, and the time saving for the climber and the ground folk seems pretty sweet...
If you are a steel carabiner or rope snap user, have you broken or damaged any carabiners to the point of retiring? Also, any tips on preventing cross-loading or gate smashing? Thanks!

Brock

 

[Benjo75]

I tie a steel biner on when there's a lot of tying and untying to do. It saves time. It' also helps to throw the rope out a little ways if you need to with the added weight. I tie it on with a double fishermans. It's pretty easy to open the biner and slide it out of the knot when you're done. I don't use it around windows. It will inevitably get flipped it to one. It makes it harder to move rigging points when using rings or a Safebloc since you have to take the biner off. When lowering blocks it can be a pain to pull the rope out from underneath the block if it's flat on the ground or neatly stacked on other blocks.

Other than all of that I really like using a steel biner. Never hurt one. I mainly use it with 1/2 and 9/16 rope so the rope would likely be the weak point.

I don't use a splice on rigging ropes. The end is too likely to get damaged for a splice to pay off for me. I don't feel it would last long enough for the investment.

 

[flushcut]

I splice my rigging lines. My typical is splice one end and run that end until the splice starts looking worn and beat up. Then splice the other end run that until it's ratty and beat up then down grade the line to no critical service and splice up a new line. Not that I am really questioning the ropes integrity but it's a easy way to "track" cycles to failure.

 

[SkwerI]

I used a spliced eye and steel screwlock biner for years on my rigging lines. Faster and easier for ground crew. Always make sure the load is on the spine, not the gate. If the limb is so small diameter that you're worried about side loading, then it isn't heavy enough to worry about anyway. You just have to be aware of side loading when setting your rigging and be prepared to reset it if there might be an issue. Another option if a limb wants to side load is to wrap the rope twice then clip.

The ones I used were purchased from Sherrill but they no longer show them on the website. I just spent 20 minutes searching and this is the closest I could find. This shape seemed to work best for keeping proper orientation as well as opening far enough to get the rope in and out easily. Keyed gate not pinned gate. Last year I found some with 60kn or 65kn rating and the gate opened at an angle to the side, those were nice also. Amazon steel carabiner

 

[SkwerI]

Just wondering how many folks prefer to have an eye splice in the end of their rigging lines? I've always felt that adding a metal clip of some sort during negative rigging was asking for trouble but I see it quite a bit these days, and the time saving for the climber and the ground folk seems pretty sweet...
If you are a steel carabiner or rope snap user, have you broken or damaged any carabiners to the point of retiring? Also, any tips on preventing cross-loading or gate smashing? Thanks!

Brock

Dozens. Keep spares in the truck (I even kept a spare clipped on the rope bag). If you break one, swap it out and keep working. Also think about how it got broke and don't do that again.

 

[Altissimus]

Its two subjects , one is spliced end and the other the hardware attach point.. Year's back I ordered a 9/16 200' w spliced end , due to an error it showed up without. At this point I consider it a favor. Would have made me less versatile pulling through when needed. Plus it's that working end that takes the beating and would someday be shortened from there , much like Logging winch lines. Hardware at attach point , yes I generally want some Steel there. For a few lights or mediums a Carabiner sure but I generally don't have to open it , pretty much use slings with those smaller Stainless non lockers on the work so just clip them in to the bigger one on the end. For anything real serious and always when using the Winch I use an old oversize hook w a keeper , makes handling less fumbly and adds weight to the working side much like the overhual ball on the Crane. Having the end pulled all the way up to the Block when you are below it and getting a penalty climb is a drag.

 

[Altissimus]

Oh yeah. Smashed one of the non lockers ...

 

[Brock Mayo]

Thanks for the info. Yeah, it is two questions... Spliced rigging lines? And, do you use carabiners or some other connector on the end of your rigging line? I tend to use carabiners for lots of repetitive limbs, or any positive rigging, but pretty much always ditch them for negative rigging. I'm guessing if you slide the carabiner to the side of the rigging point it's unlikely to get smashed.
Brian, was there anything that seemed to be consistent with your broken carabiners? I'm guessing most of them were from dropping pretty heavy pieces, and either crossloading or smashing the gate in on the carabiner?

 

[SkwerI]

Actually I despise negative rigging. I missed the 'negative' part. Easier to do from a bucket but still unnerving. Everything posted above was referring to 1/2" lines and regular rigging.

However I have done several jobs using negative rigging with decent size chunks using 5/8" and even 3/4" double braid rope. I still use spliced eyes and carabiners, however on heavy stuff I use two carabiners side by side in the same spliced eye. I splice tight eyes on my 1/2" ropes but on bigger ropes I make them big enough to squeeze 2 biners in. I have never had 2 carabiners both fail side by side. The most common failure is cracking the screw collar, usually from the weight shifting and the gate gets side loaded against a knot or bump on the log. That's happened several times without losing the load. Sure it might be safer to use screw shackles but those are a pain and I already have the biners there with me.

As a qualifying note, I usually end up loading the logs with my bucket truck which can lift 2000 lbs. So most of my rigging I'm aiming for about 1000 lb chunks. When I'm scared I go smaller. When I was training Ron in the bucket a couple years ago I let him do his thing a couple times even though I saw he was going too big, but there was nothing to damage and I let him break a couple rigging slings and biners so he could see where the limits were. TreeTx Nate used to say that you never know exactly where the line is until you cross it.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

TreeTx Nate used to say that you never know exactly where the line is until you cross it.

Or, even that there is a line..
.
i was pretty much totally DBY with carabiner, usually 5k steel.
>>Carabiner to hang rigging line on belt for carrying
>>Throw weight across, up, or even down under limb standing on to boomerang back up towards me, lace Half Hitch
>>then again to place Carabiner as running.
try to use deformities to help, not hinder hold
>>sometimes may even cut small Humboldt etc. for rope or carabiner bed to lock into
Lighter stuff, kept carabiner in DBY eye but used originally 1" loopy sling, evolving to dyneema sling over time.
Never broke nor stretched a carabiner like this
>>But always buffered hit behind Half Hitch(es) (or Marls) to a running carabiner connection, sometimes even to round sling
With pre-fixing Half Hitch or loop sling have double bearing on load so takes angles better
>>eye2eye sling choked thru own eye or just Running Bowline, Timber Hitch to me for right angle pull/balanced carry only
>>Taking from these single 180 Turn strategies to 3x 180 of Round Turn or pre-fixing Half or round sling etc. gives rope enough mechanix/architecture to have a chance to fight more lengthwise pulls direction.
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Lots quicker, especially on ground return w/o untying, just unlacing
>>always set spin gate or clevis threads finger tight then less 1/8 turn to prevent any jamming from impacts etc.
>>lighter work had enough slings to rig 3 or 4, they just disconnect main line and send back up with previous 3-4
>>then work on removing the last run's sling(s)
Anytime paid for a spliced eye when buying rope >> created a saw magnet and nice shiny splice was removed later...

 

[Naturarbo]

I splice almost all of my ropes, never had trouble with hardware, if I can I wont use unspliced ropes ever

 

[pantheraba]

What is DBY? Double bowline Yosemite?

 

[Marc-Antoine]

I have one 5/8" rigging line knotted ( figure 8 on a bight, because I failed the splicing) with a steel thimble. I made it once and never untied it. I wont be able to now, that sure. The knot hold well but it can be a pain by its size and its tail, trying to jam every chance it gets.
I spliced 3 other 5/8" , with a thimble too. Much better.
I usually put a shackle in it (to match the thimble's radius), then a big steel biner rated 15900 lbs. I hang a sling on it, made with 5/8" Tenextec for the big pieces, or smaller slings (a little over 1/2" twisted PP ) with their own steel biner (8000lbs) . I spliced all my slings and use them chocked or girth-itched, along with the wood's size and length needed. So, the rigging lines stay always straight, not weakened/worn by the repeated short radii and heavy friction of a direct tying/knotting. A prerequisite put from my beginnings.

I unfolded a steel biner once but it was because I forgot to screw the gate. It was a big oak's limb rigged in self retention mode. I put two slings on it for peace of mind due to its size. Luckily. One biner opened but the sling stayed in it (barely) hanging on the hook, while the second one held strong. I got some sweat !

 

[theTreeSpyder]

What is DBY? Double bowline Yosemite?

YES, sorry thought standard.
i like the tad stronger, more security, and clean open eye of DBY.
Used to keep sum in old ropes made into 6-15' eye2eye or just eye one end for utility purposes
>>dragging, extensions, tie downs, small sling for pulley on base of tree to truck or winch pull load from back yard etc.
>>would usually even tape down Bitter End
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And fave for about all else too.

liked bright ropes and tape, and all of tape should show out of knot/reveals creep
>>i like the slip knot inversion method for making Bowline >>especially Round Turn version shown of DBY
>>kinda like a needle threader.
>>can also stop half way if have to wait to do something fast, hang double noose on thumb etc. and be ready to encircle and close loop
>>some old books would even showed where they might lower a slip knot style inversion to make Bowline half made with long tail
>>serve down cliff etc. to stranded>>they put tail around self, right size. and thread thru eye fold back to self and hold end there as is inverted to Bowline
>>probably in Natural ropes heavier and more friction to keep slip knot from coming out in lowering etc.
i was a kid and book said was a rescue or climber Bowline, and the inversion >> i just had to learn it!
>>then converted to DBY usage later years.

 

[pantheraba]

Well just damn! That is basically how I tie my standard bowline...my "single" turn bowline. It consists of 2 parts...a slip knot and a bight thru the slipknot..pull the proper rope and the bight gets enveloped by the slip knot and Voila....bowline. I'll be able to use your video to tie the DBY now....thanks!

I made this video several years ago for Butch to explain to him my "weird" way of tying a bowline. He was blunt: "I don't like it."

 

[SkwerI]

I don't like it either!

 

[lxskllr]

I'm gonna have to play with that a bit. Looks interesting. August has a lightening fast method of tying the bowline. I saved the video with the intention of getting back to it, but haven't yet.

I like the Scott's lock on the bowline(thanks Spyder!). Holds tight, and super easy to tie. I use it to tie my saw off with slippery polypro, and it holds tight.

 

[Altissimus]

I stick to the Anchor Hitch ... Strong , small , pretty , and easy ... on or off

 

[lxskllr]

For the saw, I use an anchor on the saddle ring I clip off. I started with a bowline on a rear handle so I could put a toy biner in the loop to clip it to the saddle, and just kept going with it, though it isn't necessary with the top handle. The anchor's a great termination hitch for sure. Holds fast, and trivially easy to inspect.

 

[Tree09]

Gary, that is the way to do an equalized bowline, which is used to finish many different knots, such as a jury masthead for rigging a gin pole or a bucket hitch to suspend a bucket. The one thing you have to watch for is the tail going to the outside, which has been shown to slip earlier (the Yosemite finish prevents that of course). I think that in the riggers apprentice by Toss shows a bunch of other ways to tie it, including a one handed one.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Sorry so long, but love this stuff and don't think anyone else really sees as i do, to these pivotal, ruling points.
>>honestly always have feeling am supposed to share what have been allowed to see!




Very nice, nice confidence in opening act also(Gary)!
Wish i had made more films, what little rigging caught got lost etc.
>>things are different today(my DBY vid ~30yrs old made on hand cam), would have had helmet cam for sure!
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In ABoK it states somewheres that a sailor would more likely make Bowline by this slipknot/inversion method;
>>landlubber has rabbit chase around tree model.
Characterize Bowline as fixed eye, other stuff like noose shrinking eye utility of different class
Fixed eye, better for clipping carabiners in and out of all day, or inverting Standing Part thru for runner.
Again really like the wide open eye, w/o tail inside for this, or foot or hand grab, quick Dbl.Sheetbend to when no metal link etc.
>>i grew to favor 'modular component' rope systems
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Where you 'reeve' Bitter End thru eye and fold back to self @1.40(Gary), is what they would have cliff victim do after long tail slip knot lowered over cliff to them, and just don't let go of either side of that bight after sized around chest under arms so doesn't shrink close on chest but cant fall thru!
>>Stay very conscious of arms, as circulation and feeling slowed down now, so don't let arms get lazy, keep focused in place so don't fall thru etc.
>>for Running Bowline etc. could have the slip already made, even hanging on branch or thumb then snatch quick to lock around self (or other host) mount when right time, something swing to you etc.
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Mentor knudeKnoggin prefers the 'wrong' side for the Bowline/Sheetbend tail, this was argued in ABoK's time too.
>>part of this rule i think was for the lay of 3strand
>>also stories of using Bowline to lower on docks and the tail to outside snagging and inverting backwards to slip knot and releases
This which side tail carries into Sheetbend too, standard is to finish both tails same side(leaving a finished side) as would do Square Knot as a mnemonic to same alignment
>>If do as i was taught/as Kyle states both parts of the Hitch lock part, clamps the bight side that would try to be escapee otherwise
This is probably easier to see in Sheetbend
>>But if make the 'wrong' way, the Bitter End side of Bight does not clamp between what would be the most rigid, hard parts /Standing Parts of Sheetbend
>>only grabs the 'input' side of bight, to clamp down hardest between most rigid parts, but does so more dedicated squarely in trade.
>>BUT not to the softer, easier to impose lock onto, less loaded rigid Bitter End after the Turn of bight around Standing Part (SPart)
This is a little harder to watch for during the Slip Knot method for Bowline.
i like 1+1 mechanix of grabbing 2 points over just 1 in about anything want to secure, but can't totally ignore knudeNoggin for sure!
.
i about always and all ways, go for Round Turn/Double Bowline or Sheetbend to alleviate this argument
>>the 3x180 arcs is a different , more complete grip mechanism that must clamp down on both parts of Bight either way made
>>Round Turn or more is ALWAYS better grip than Turn. Turn kinda has 1 great arc and openish side of input/output to the arc linears in comparison to the full wrap grip of 3arcs COMPLETELY around, then same kinda input/output linears to the 3 arcs mechanic.
>>linear pulls use cosine for pull down the line, and remaining sine x tension for controlling frictions and grips, only to 1 side in Turn
>>arcs use all cosine and sine for frictions, load bearing and grip if more than one simple redirect arc
>>arcs thus use ALL tensions to ALL targets, linear ropePart cannot
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Rope, is just another structure material, but of a special class 'flexible support' is only rigid against load/when under imposed load
>>then only along it's length, in the tension direction>>rigid supports can do that and cross axis load and compression direction by contrast
>>also rigid support is always rigid at room temp, must heat, carve, pound, chip to reforge shape
>>flexibles only unload to make workable, forges rigid on load by contrast>>otherwise same support rules as all else
In old times, wanted to use stone for bridge, but nonmalleables only great in compression, not in tension
>>necessity being such a mother, they found the arc so could carry bridge load as all compression
>>rope arc is same principal to me, only inverted to all tension usable instead of compression /reverse direction to same science
The input force direction determines much even thru the arc in rope.
>>Thus if load Hitch or Bend arc it has a compounding point that is 2x1 in pulley usage as counterintuitively the directionality persists thru arcs
>>BUT by contrast Binding against swell is a INTERNAL(inside of controlling arcs) RADIAL input of force to same arc(s) and no compounding point, as all points before Nip are equal, not focused directional but diffused force. goes from radial input to radial control
>>the compounding point in arc is from the persistence of directionality of a EXTERNAL(outside controlling arcs) LINEAR force of focused linear input imposed.as degrades force from conversion linear force input imposed to radial control of arcs diffusing force as it degrades
>>radial force input to radial control no conversion loss (Binding)
Linear parts are just connectors to input, output and arcs and have nominal/if any frictions
>>1st arc gives more nominal frictions, more of frictionalized re-direct
>>subsequent arcs compound this to beyond nominal frictions
3x180 arcs
>>so single Turn has only 1 arc, to 1 side, 2 arcs give grip arc to either side, but 3 gives more
>>and connecting all 3 compounding parts (greatest force of arc) gives a more 2dimensional architecture
>>now suitable for more than jsut a right angle pull inline to roe
>>2dimensional structure more worth of a 2 dimensional pull lengthwise>>lesser (than 3 arcs)should only pull right angle to host as 1dimension linear pull model
>>thus put Half Hitch in front of Timber to make Killick for pulls lengthwise/along host like also see in most friction hitches, lowering log from end etc.
Arc compounds frictions by degrees, larger host gives same friction!
>>but softer rope arcs, heat more spread out
>>if metal host has more heatsink also
>>and larger construction strength possible
Linears that only use part of rope tension for friction , compound by distance
i consider these (really few)points as some of the most defining pivotal parts of rope mechanix outside or inside of knot internals.
>>that can guide choices and fine points very well in construction of supporting architectures in rope
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Favor the Yosemite finish on Bowline for the clean eye, more security
>>Slip-Knot mostly for Sheetbend finish, crossed over it self for more 'poof'/roundness serving the Bitter End more into clamp action
looking at Sheetbend w/lock and release sides, the lock/Hitch side is the active component and if mixed lines
>>the lock side MUST be the smaller/more densely packed rigid side to impose and lock on the
>>greater rigidity can come from stiffer manufacture and/or smaller diameter to have same force more densely packed than 'softer'/fluffier side of same load in larger diameter of perhaps softer manufacture too.
Square Knot MUST have equal matching /same ropes
>>MUST clamp rope 2x
>>MUST not do so better on either side, so both equal, no greater advantage of one stiffer or larger etc.
>>that would be disadvantage on other side
>>MUST be used only in Binding of radial internal force into arcs
>>primary lock to host is LOST if use as Bend, only iffy off side, softer load lock given then
Sheet Bend corrects this by crossing 1 leg over to power side, to affect Hitch lock around the passive bight
>>picture Square as 2 passive slid together bights, primary force lock from against host lost off host
.
Stay Safe >> give proper mechanical commands in order to rope
>>else can crash as out of order, sloppy computer commands can!
To that analogy, i believe that knotting was the first human engineering outside of self
>>to do steps correctly, in connecting structure, in correct order to achieve a usable structure over and over
>>something out of order etc. falls apart >>just like computer program of today, linked series of correct commands in order!
>>the seat of exercising our understandings of such things just maybe in rope that could make things much faster than carving, heating etc. to reforge shape>> but evidence lost to decay etc. long before rigids
Am very pro-Scouts etc that pass these things on , and the unspoken lessons that got us this far!
>>all my rope examinations lead back around to are we teaching this right to them etc.
(rant officially over, well..........until next time...)

 

[pantheraba]

(rant officially over, well..........until next time...)

Some good insights there...thanks. I had not purposefully thought of rope as a support like a 2x4...but rope support is only valid when under tension while 2x4 is support under compression. Thanks for the "aha".

Re: rescue use...yep...when the Army Rangers taught us the bowline they taught the 2 step method...slipknot/bight. We learned to tie it around ourselves at the waist...it was our safety during cliff climbing...and to tie it around a victim that had to be rescued. There were not any saddles/harnesses for rock climbing then (1969). Their method of tying was so specific that an instructor could watch you tie the knot from 30 feet above you and tell readily that you made the slipknot "wrong" (rotated the first turn the wrong way...or didn't have enough tail rope to make the bight....he could see that, get apoplectic, make you do your 10 Ranger pushups (feet up, head down) plus the extra P-up for "the Man on the Mountain"...and then he could scan for the next bumbler. That kind of mad enthusiasm gets the attention of a 16 year old...after a week of it a bowline, anchor bowline, butterfly, square knot, half hitch or Swiss Seat were all second nature.

 

[Brock Mayo]

Great videos! I love a knot tied almost like a magic trick. August's bowline video is worth a watch for sure, but I now have to master this slip knot inversion method!
Spydie, I started into that last post feeling pretty good about my comprehension, but lost it about half way in. Finished strong though, there's still hope

 

[theTreeSpyder]

All along, i have had most faith in you, even more than you humbly have yourself!
>>your chase thru splicing as the strongest 'knot'/rope mechanics of the most efficient type repeats that out also.
Thanx for just being you!
.
And Gary, am forever jealous of air-borne ranger school training at 16 too!
Handstand pushups were standard fair for me at that age also tho w/gymnastics
>>minimum 20 became my number, against wall on pushup bars so had to go down further
>>in later years , to stay tight if didn't climb a day, did the 20 on those lower store bought push up bars
>>about age 40 skipped Sundays
>>about age 45 quit as could tell too much pressure in face, blood etc.
.
2x4 as a rigid device can be used in both tension and compression directions along both the proper inline linear axis of device and it's cross axis
>>using long linear axis for load, makes that the cosine axis
>>only leaves the lesser minimal axises as sine axises to be leveraged against device to carry same load thru cosine at worst angle
>>but coming across a lesser axis with force ported thru 2x4 device, makes that the cosine axis in same unique single dimension as load
>>but then offers the larger major length axis as leverage-able sine axis !!
Rope as a flexible device can only resist against imposed load INLINE not cross axis, and only in the tension not compression direction
>>is only rigid when forged so under load, otherwise melts into puddle for next time
>>is subject to cross forces>>but can not rule them, as no resistance on that minimal cross axises like rigid devices
>>round rope gives unilateral all cross-axises predictably equal leveraged length and usually minimal to shituation
>>flat webbing cross axises by contrast give minimal and maximum axises (other than long linear main loaded axis)
>>thus flat webbing less predictable, and also can take more devastating deformity cross width in scrunch of knot, where round rope stays round and webbing distorts to a roundish harshly form original manufactured tensile peak design.
.
My cosine model fits waveforms of electric, magnetic, sound, vibration etc.
>>cosine comes first in all, sine a half cycle later
>>so say persists into this arena too>>cosine imposed by load directly as a waveform pulse, with sine as a responder, not initiator
>>almost instantaneous >>just a half cycle later as a pulse/waveform thru conducting device of wood, rope, steel, stone etc.
.
The most clear pronouncement to me of these things, and their similarities was from the Ancient History Encyclopedia on Greek Mathematics :
A#1 : "The technique of abstraction, based on ignoring physical considerations which are seen as merely incidental. Whether it was a rope, a piece of wood or any other physical object was irrelevant. It was all about properties of “straight lines” connecting at angles, nothing more. These lines are simply mental constructs and the only entity necessary to the solution of the problem. The process of abstraction is about getting rid of all the nonessential elements and considering only what is fundamental."
.
i tell ya they are talking straight up about us, the rope, wood as conducting devices of the forces ported thru by weight, length etc. and persistence of that including direction, and it is all this geometry of alignment to the single axis of focused unique single dimension of load force line imposed, then the opposing direction in that axis dimension as a column against that imposed loading irrespective of the devices wood, rope etc.(cosine)...
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Sailor's would load rope onto great ship, but was a line in usage >>makes sense to me from rope puddle to line of (loaded)force in usage.
>>this is all to support mechanics, capitalizing on the cosine
Wrenching angles are to the 90s of this axis, wrenching is the bastardization of support
>>capitalizes on sine, not cosine, whereby asking for support at the Achille's Heel of support as Samson used on columns that did need 2 for Equal/Opposite..
>>trys to tempt supporting device to break by asking for support at angle where the cosine of support is Zer0!!
>>thus big Pipe Wrench will have handle built like an iBeam to prevent breakage, hold together and return the leveraged force w/o flex
>>sweating a rope sideways, returns more leveraged force output if line more iron bar tight before start
>>for less rubbery lever >>that then returns more
>>so subsequent cycles after sweat and take purchase go higher and higher for leveraged return.
.
If angled line, then is less cosine so rope needs more tension to give same sum of tension x cosine to give support to load, cosine is to your cos(cause)
>>sine is 'sin' of anything not to this focused axis >> so must be carried along with work but not contributing to column of support against load
Angled column of support is less efficient, less cosine, more effort/tension AND resist sine from a different direction as well
>>compression failure mostly from blow out side of sine effect against conducting device before really crushing cosine column per say
>>as compression side force exerts away from centerline
>>tension pulls towards centerline, but tension fails seem to be from overcrossing this centerline /side blow out leaving hooks at ends sometimes
>>rather than just stretch along length fail
Cosine and Sine are just more pivotal/deeper expressions , minimized to just 2 spawned from a single event
>>that then express and fan out to reveal in more things further/less deeply pivotal
>>there is a certain logic in knowing the pivotals >>how they rule that which expands and spawns from them
>>that then sees logic in their outcomes of this mechanical logic,
>>but then illogic in statements sometimes etc.>>just cuz don't fit to spawn from the fewer pivotals
Ancients served it up on a silver platter: single event >> duels of cosine/sine>>carries to rest of outcome
>>event and outcomes of that pyramid model change participants and values
But the cosine/sine layer of the pyramid model of pivotal expanding to outcomes
>>only changes values, always has the cosine and sine as participants
>>at the layer right off the event, before runs away to express thru all else in multitudes of directions and effects.
That is what it has meant to me, given me, and why keep throwing it out thar!
>>what seems as most confusing is really most minimal set of rules governing all !
>>just not what you can see and touch directly as cause and effect of event and outcomes
>>so is rather a consistent, minimal, comprehensive point just 1 step inside between event and outcomes!
There is a "Mathematics of Harmony" in all these things together in one world.

 

[pantheraba]

I never made it to 20 handstand pushups...got up to 12 regularly (against the wall) but that was max. Gymnasts are a whole 'nother beast for sure.

Made it up to 19.75 real chinups years back...never broke 20 there either.