Newer to group (than Blair Glenn) and question

[walden]

Heya,

I'm a new climber and I have a question: How much will I damage a Western Red cedar by spurring up it (as practice)? I need to know because I need to get some experience (low and slow) and these are the trees I have available to me. I also have access to broad leaf maple and Hemlock trees. The cedars are second growth, roughly 24-36" in diameter and growing on my little piece of Paradise in the PNW. I'm not an arborist, just looking to do the take downs, some of which would be better done by chunking, rather than felling. (If you think this story seems familiar, I also posed the question on Arboristsite.com) Any way, your thoughts and insights would be appreciated.

 

[gf beranek]

You'll damage or hurt the tree if you spur it. But if you fell the tree it's OK.

Called the arborist paradox.

 

[lxskllr]

Welcome! The second newest guy had a video I watched today that showed internal damage to a cottonwood caused by spurs during prunes from years past. I'm not familiar with true cedars, and they may be different, but I'd say nothing's gonna be happy having it's skin punctured.

If it were me, I'd look for something that should come down to practice on, or pick a tree you're willing to sacrifice. I'd choose the sacrificial tree carefully. You may not be an arborist now, but perhaps in the future. Pick one that'll be interesting for practicing rope work and rigging.

 

[walden]

You'll damage or hurt the tree if you spur it. But if you fell the tree it's OK.

Called the arborist paradox.

I suspected as much. In fact, the tree I really want to set to work on is dying. Its a lone cedar that seems to have a fungal infection at its butt and an exposed split that runs from the root splay to a height of about 25'. The foliage atop is still greenish but no where near as healthy looking as the specimens that were left as groups on the site. I have some experience felling trees but I suspect the butt is compromised and a hinge, even up high, would be hinckey. On top of all that, the only direction I could fell this tree is across the water and gas service lines to the property. Most of my falling was on an initial attack forest fire team in Eastern side of the Coast mountains of British Columbia, where there are no considerations, other than an appropriate place to build a heli-pad. Even though I live in an rural area now, I've never felled a tree onto services and I'm not sure I want to. That is why I've become a "new climber". I hear your advice, thank you. I guess I will just expose my ineptitude to my neighbors and practice on the victim tree.

 

[walden]

Welcome! The second newest guy had a video I watched today that showed internal damage to a cottonwood caused by spurs during prunes from years past. I'm not familiar with true cedars, and they may be different, but I'd say nothing's gonna be happy having it's skin punctured.

If it were me, I'd look for something that should come down to practice on, or pick a tree you're willing to sacrifice. I'd choose the sacrificial tree carefully. You may not be an arborist now, but perhaps in the future. Pick one that'll be interesting for practicing rope work and rigging.

The Cottonwoods I am familiar with have extremely thick bark, especially the old specimens; it is a bark that is soft and tends to slough off for no particular reason where I live. I appreciate your advice about practicing on a tree that I'm willing to sacrifice. As it happens, there is a cedar tree in my front yard, within striking distance of telephone and power lines and my own water service and gas lines that needs to come down. I'll gear up and see if I can stay off the ground.

Wish me luck!

 

[SkwerI]

Just be aware that if something goes bad, the odds of somebody else rescuing you are pretty much nil. Your best odds for rescue are from self rescue. ALWAYS have an escape path ready before starting your saw. When I began climbing, I made it a practice to visualize every single move, every single cut. I would play it in my mind how I wanted it to go, and then try to figure out how it could possibly go wrong. Then I would play out my escape route. Doing this every day on every single move made me able to anticipate what was going to happen as well as what could go wrong. It becomes second nature and you end up carrying it over to many aspects of your life.
Always be aware of the position of your saw and keep body parts out of the line of potential kickback. Try to never make a cut with your body in line with the bar. With time and experience you will get comfortable and complacent. An old timer once told me a climber will cut himself with his saw about once every 7 years, when he gets too complacent. With over 30 years of practice I can attest that his number was surprisingly accurate.

 

[Jonny]

Welcome!
Good advice from Skwerl. Have your head on a swivel, see everything, and don’t make a cut if you’re not sure exactly what is gonna happen next. No shame in walking away if there’s chance of damage or injury.
Depending on experience with a saw and how long and how often you worked in wild land fire fighting, this work might be right up your alley. My advice might not apply to you, but my most common advice to aspiring working climbers is that it’s critically important that you be an expert at using a chainsaw on the ground first, before running one in the tree. If you’re causing accidental kickback or still get the bar hopelessly pinched, it’s not time yet. A mentor/ trainer would be ideal too.

 

[walden]

Just be aware that if something goes bad, the odds of somebody else rescuing you are pretty much nil. Your best odds for rescue are from self rescue. ALWAYS have an escape path ready before starting your saw. When I began climbing, I made it a practice to visualize every single move, every single cut. I would play it in my mind how I wanted it to go, and then try to figure out how it could possibly go wrong. Then I would play out my escape route. Doing this every day on every single move made me able to anticipate what was going to happen as well as what could go wrong. It becomes second nature and you end up carrying it over to many aspects of your life.
Always be aware of the position of your saw and keep body parts out of the line of potential kickback. Try to never make a cut with your body in line with the bar. With time and experience you will get comfortable and complacent. An old timer once told me a climber will cut himself with his saw about once every 7 years, when he gets too complacent. With over 30 years of practice I can attest that his number was surprisingly accurate.

My plan, when the time comes (read: when I'm comfortable with the equipment) is to spur up the tree with two flip lines and bring a climbing line with me. I will bring a hitch climber pulley and eye to eye on my saddle and, if things seem to be going sideways, have a way to rappel down. I could set a line about 60' up with a friction saver (I've practiced with a throw ball and line in the tree) with the idea of having the line available if necessary. I will use the two flip lines as anchors when cutting and I think its a good idea for some one on the ground to be able to assist via the double rope. I just not sure how to manage the double rope and flip lines on the way up. I suppose I could use one flip line for the climb and use the rope as a secondary ascent device and use the second flip line when I'm limbing and chunking. I've had some experience as a recreational rock climber, mostly top roped and bouldering, so I am familiar with some of the equipment. Does it sound to you like I'm trying to convince myself that I can do this? I reckon I just need to get on with it and spend the time "learning the ropes".

 

[Altissimus]

Have to add , entering the world of the self taught can be scary at times ... by the time I figured alot of this stuff out Gerry published Fundamentals. Low and slow to gain confidence , someone on the ground is a tremendous asset as well. Keep the limb and chunk weight down until you have good control over the work. As the master said in his book "Climb Safely"

 

[flushcut]

My advice is if the tree is yours run up it a million times and get some practice, but know the tree is going to suffer and should be removed at some point before the ownership passes on to the next owner. And learn to climb without spurs as well; SRT DRT Wraptor whatever.

 

[DMc]

Use one flipline and spurs to start. Learn that first by going up and down short distances, over and over.

Each aspect of climbing needs to be learned, preferably individually. Trying to accomplish multiple, new tasks in a tree is a recipe for disaster.

 

[lxskllr]

From the gif thread, this is my second time on spurs(a photo was snapped every 30 seconds)...

You can see when I started, the branches were pretty well over my head. Previously(day/week before?) I put the spurs on for the first time just to get a feel for it. I was feeling pretty good, so I grabbed my saw and did a little cutting. That gave me some room to play. I fooled around with it to get a feel for what I could get away with. Fast, slow, around in circles. I intentionally climbed sloppily to see what it took to gaff out, took glancing "bites" into the wood, stuck the spur in knots...

Anyway, I found it helpful, and working around bottom was pretty low consequence. That species in particular(spruce) I find is a real PITA. When you stop to work the spurs really bury in, and they can be difficult to unstick. Not "I'm trapped in this tree" difficult, but really tedious to move around. Like walking in deep wet clay where it takes effort to move. If I were doing this for money, I'd have pole gaffs also for trees like this. As it is, I make do with tree gaffs. Tree gaffs work everywhere, but pole gaffs could sometimes fail in a particular tree. So... Make sure your gear's tight, and will stay in place if you have to do some tugging.

I'm not an arborist, or even do this for money, so weight the above accordingly, but that's my experience so far.

 

[walden]

From the gif thread, this is my second time on spurs(a photo was snapped every 30 seconds)...

You can see when I started, the branches were pretty well over my head. Previously(day/week before?) I put the spurs on for the first time just to get a feel for it. I was feeling pretty good, so I grabbed my saw and did a little cutting. That gave me some room to play. I fooled around with it to get a feel for what I could get away with. Fast, slow, around in circles. I intentionally climbed sloppily to see what it took to gaff out, took glancing "bites" into the wood, stuck the spur in knots...

Anyway, I found it helpful, and working around bottom was pretty low consequence. That species in particular(spruce) I find is a real PITA. When you stop to work the spurs really bury in, and they can be difficult to unstick. Not "I'm trapped in this tree" difficult, but really tedious to move around. Like walking in deep wet clay where it takes effort to move. If I were doing this for money, I'd have pole gaffs also for trees like this. As it is, I make do with tree gaffs. Tree gaffs work everywhere, but pole gaffs could sometimes fail in a particular tree. So... Make sure your gear's tight, and will stay in place if you have to do some tugging.

I'm not an arborist, or even do this for money, so weight the above accordingly, but that's my experience so far.

Wow, I really appreciate your time in posting this. I only have tree gaffs and my experience at the bottom of my cedar tree has been less than stellar; I mentioned the fungal infection in a previous post and that has made the tree punky around its bottom girth. In order to get the gaffs to stick and hold, I find I must really weight them to reach sound wood. - then they are quite difficult to remove. I'm hoping that as I progress up the tree I will run into more sound wood. Here are some photos of the subject tree .

 

[Jonny]

Probably due for removal soon. Spike away!

 

[lxskllr]

Yup. That looks like a perfect practice tree.

 

[biggun]

Good luck and welcome.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Awesome beginner tree. Spike away.
Just remember, if you are injured, chances are you will not be able to tie on your prussic and have your life line set as rappel and be able to remove or come down by two flip lines.
Flip line up. Set your life line before making a cut. Even use your life line or climb rope as a second flip line.
If you can set the climb line in the canopy (those limbs looke pretty small, i would want it over at least two and back around the trunk.) you will find an occassional gaff tear out no biggie since the climb line catches you. Less cheese grating as you may.
If you dont have some throw line and bags yet, use some contractors string line and a socket. Throw it threw some limbs near the bole and draw the rope back through.
Read a book.
Climbers companion or Gerrys book. Educate.
Climb safe

 

[SeanKroll]

Flip out some mill logs!
Just kidding.

Great tree to tackle, for a very ambitious person.

 

[pigwot]

One word of caution:
You said, “I suspected as much. In fact, the tree I really want to set to work on is dying. Its a lone cedar that seems to have a fungal infection at its butt and an exposed split that runs from the root splay to a height of about 25'.”

Learn about species-specific decay patterns and how to assess a tree’s integrity. That basal fungus/rot could mean a tree ready to fail. Be ready to hang out of a nearby tree if the one you’re working is sketchy.

 

[vharrison]

Do you have the book “Fundamentals “?

 

[walden]

What can I say, some very good advice, a few cautions (much appreciated), a movie, an answered question and more responses than I could have hoped for. Thank you, gentlemen!
I will take pictures of the process so you see what you inspired.

 

[walden]

Do you have the book “Fundamentals “?

I have an electronic copy - it’s been my bedtime reading for a couple of months. Thanks for asking!

 

[Altissimus]

A straight out single pole take down without lowering ... I rarely get them around here , if you take your time and follow the rules I bet you've got this

 

[SeanKroll]

And ladies!
Vharrison and Bermy...

I think there was mention of this Western redcedar, Thuja plicata, being a true cedar. It's its own thing, not related to Cedrus... atlantica, lebani, deodorant...

 

[Bermy]

....mate! Deodorant cedar LOL 😂