Moss's hand sewn process

theTreeSpyder

TreeHouser
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Feb 12, 2016
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691
This shows at the Buzz for 40 pages of insights and also some warnings from TreeStuff as well.
Moss's hand sewn process
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Not a splicer, but my take:
TreeStuff Bonner's concerns point at some things etc. To differentiate a splice would get frictions all around inside a shrinking 'tube', then stitched and many more made and can be machined away from human f'ups. Totally different than 1 side frictions, no shrink around and stitch by hand that quite possibly a teenager in a rush might try, even gift to someone...
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My interest academic and safety only a sprinkle of self sufficiency. i think that the frictions/adhesion is the property to watch, 5# added thread strength a secondary concern for when it all hits the fan/threads pulled diagonally as the friction mating hookup is surpassed and eye goes to backup strategy. A way to test the theories i think would be to make lesser splices instead of better for testing for built in headroom and to prove theory. Like if usually throw 100 stitches in, try 30 and test. If that even comes close to acceptable, would seem bringing back to 100 stitches very confidently and go on. Kinda a reverse strategy to same point, round world view. 100 stitch count not total focus, the linear length of the 'tacking surfaces' is how frictions are compounded.
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My knot view of Hitch terminations and Bend couplings are that they are external linear force fed into arc control(Binding is internal radial force to same arc controls w/o linear to radial conversion). The first, Primary Arc whether 90 or 180 forms a hook to the preceding linear/Standing Part in Hitches and Bends. Rest of knot is to keep this hook aligned in place on host hook keeps load connected. By that model, after the hook in this 'hand sewn eye process' is the frictions tacking to side, and some lil'baby shelves of texture catching on each other as long as this stays in position, the hook is good,. This is dependent on the frictions imposed by the thread mating the surfaces tightly, on a linear run the frictions will compound by distance of contact so that is factor, so is the slickness of the materials and their manufacture/braid. The way the braid catches itself or not might surprise in a different kind of rope handled same. And the slickness of the material used then of course too. So this would still be more towards select fire not shotgun all across everything with claims of what works.
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Clear coat would help keep this simple alignment, keep colors brightest for most dramatic inspection, protect threads and keep grit out from working it's way inside to work on cutting fibers unseen from the inside. This would seem more like a buried splice concern, but is additive here that get with the protection of the sheathing. Cleaning carpets makes them last longer, as sand model is 18 cutting surfaces per uncrushable grains deep in carpet powered by people walking back and forth etc. silently destroying carpet from inside.
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The warnings on the threads getting slanted under load is what i envisioned. This would be the place where raw tensile of thread x numbers of threads is more of an argument necessity. This would also be the time when would want thread more matching the host material so neither had the advantage to cut the other etc. Similar to Square Knot needing matching materials for even fight to maintain Square-ness. Otherwise, in normal use, the threads sitting 90 degrees to rest of rope are just for the side adhesions/frictions . Thus still feel some non stiff, non destructive glue could help on that facing. ABoK talks of putting fresh varnish on mast area and then knotting on that for extra tack in the lengthwise pull chapter (which this is), other ways were to use wood ashes, best he recommends is cut open inner tube to use thin rubber to alter the CoFs Co-efficient of Friction of the mated surfaces.
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So i maintain my fender washer model, for hanging sheet vertical. Pinch with bolts across, but held in place by frictions of fender pinches invoked by bolts. Don't want it so much hanging on bolts, and in use the holes elongating or any wear as a safety flag not carrying on simple frictions and stressing across the bolt minimal not maximum size dimension. The fender washers spread stress to wider area while using bolt force properly, even tho not aligned to the load force but across. The best strength of the thread is pulling along it's length across eye, to then leverage the frictions into holding eye. Not eye losing these frictional catches and actually pulling across threads where they have to slant trying to hold on by aligning with the force pull of rope as can as a last bailout resort before failing.
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Too small an eye could get spread by host against the first thread 'tack'. Longer with preceding tack, space, then real list of stitches kept safe from spread by tack riding point could be improvement. As first position to slant, perhaps this could be softer thread, less cutting primary type model if slants. Eye long enough to Girth/Choke to carabiner would take some strength concerns off stitching and realign concerns to bend against the Standing Parts of eye, and this should not be stiff if going this route. Rigidity invokes leveraged length, loaded soft parts will already give this, thus efficiency/cosine loss. Stiffer/stiffened material will emphasize this.
 
I don’t understand what you mean with the fender washers.

I briefly played with it too, bought some Tex 400 thread and the right needles. That third pass was a bitch and I was breaking needles.

Mine looked like crap compared to Moss’ and it was some really old rope so I haven’t climbed on my own. I’d probably trust it after I had one break tested and was happy with results.
 
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  • #3
Tighten bolts to fender washers tight enough so leverages hold over larger area of friction of lesser load per square inch held against and without stretching tensions, only compression. If shows marks, elongations of riding bolts with higher focussed per square inch against harder surface and allowing tension/stretch; then not enough frictions. Riding bolts/threads directly not leveraging thru frictions would be fail over in this model, after fail of the tacking frictions as the primary.
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Some folks were saying 50# thread, so many passes to multiply out to ideal capacity. But threads sit crosswise to load pull. Thread tensile quoted down length, not across... Visualize as approaches fail, then threads going at diagonal as try to align to load directional axis. Which can't do to total efficiency to full multiplier then... The ideal would be to always maintain pristine shape as you made. Thus the frictional area for making eye is key, don't just count 50#x100 passes all in one area as hitting target.
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They do mention buying leatherwork awl, but not using those needles and using 'ball tip' to feel way thru a bit less destructively pushing fibers aside rather than barging thru. Several references of working all this with intense focus and hearing the needle cut the threads. Brocky shows a string w/thumbtack tied to rope working on. Pushes in where wants awl to come out, and then flags when on target w/awl ! Full personal risk disclaimers and Bonner sounding warning gong that this is random untested thin ice at best. Anyone serious about this should read pretty much the whole 40 pages.
 
Fwiw, I use an awl to make an eye in webbing that holds a small steel hook in a webbing come-along that keeps my grapple bucket in the up position for travel. Once a year I forget to remove it prior to actuating the boom and bucket controls and the webbing itself breaks, never the eye nor the stitches. And I don't spend much time or care with the awl making the eye. Mad power in the boom breaks the webbing, I was surprised the stitching comes out unscathed.

Not that I'm ready to climb on my stitching work but it is evidently very strong.
 
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  • #8
i like term shifted ( with or without the f ) for the imagery on this and am stealing it for further (ab)use thanx!
 
I actually ordered some mini drill chucks and collets, hopefully I can fashion some type of handle for them and make a sewing awl that can handle much bigger needles than the speedy stitch.
The 3rd pass is almost like trying to sew through a block of wood and I can envision a little puncture wound when the needles break.
 
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  • #11
Wow, don't remember that>>so even when write on time, you just simply before yo'time!
>>but i predict you will find can have folks saying you are wrong for mos/yrs, then later get upset saying:
>> well that is common sense why did you even bring it up and waste our time!
(kinda only take logic and emotions like that from wife)
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To me, tho not seen much w/arbos, binding across arc to make eye has always been typical in many things like cables and old ships.
ABoK opens and closes with general knot stuff and applications chapters, specializing more towards center peak.
Last 2 are the marlingspike chapters : 1 for real mens working /practical and the book's final chapter for making fancies(lil'finger in the air chit).
abok-marlingspike-eye-splice (Custom).png
olds-cool !
Multiple legs of tension to these ends (6legs each on last 2) scream out (in mute testimony) very confident in service duty of architecture.
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These are basis for saying elsewheres that can have another binding as another check if any doubts on sewn eye.
>>thinking that independent stops would handle different than longer series
>>any force trying to 'shi(f)t' primary sewing group would then need to beat another series to prevail
Also ABoK seems to point out that a Half Hitch around as stopper 'ramming' rear end of rest of knot is weaker than where the Half(s) are spaced from the rest of the preceding knot and tail sewn as keeper.
>>i think just as try to not deform the input (Standing Part) to main 'knot carriage' framework, is also best to keep the rear of the 'knot carriage' square too, to then assure whole 'carriage' is square!
>>i would call Square Knot by older name of more sea salt flavor a Reef Knot
>>except for constant reminder in simplest of lacings to keep things 'Square' to purpose!
tail-stabilizer.png
Lesson#1884 also pulls more properly along the Standing Part input than across in this termination(hitch).
>>but effect can be witnessed in couplings (bend) as well i believe.
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Carriage would be mainframe set squarely, input/outputs set squarely to
>>input imposes load on otherwise passive system, most loaded rope part, so most sensitive to deformity from square
>>output is that ballasting tailerman after bollard, capstan in dynamic functions of same rope mechanix
These show capstan turned to take 'purchase' to 'hold fast'>>moving load and/or tightening rope to
first pic shows/reminds rope like chain is just part of flexible supports class also
Capstan-Pre-1906a-craster-history.jpg
Toy model most clearly shows usually lesser realized tailer
>>note how these guys always stay low, tucked out of the way as mush as can to keep rope from being obstacle to rest of crew
>>and the tail man on 'rudder' always seems to be the lead man..all else is for naught if he slips
>>modern ship or port may have motorized constant spin capstan, but only pulls rope when lead /pulled by tail(er) !
CapstanCrewModel.jpg
from this bygone age, may really have to look for tailer purposefully.
>>knowing they must be there(also seems he is the only one that can afford shoes even tho not using'em as much! )
Capstan-flute.jpg
from a time when men where men, and even smelled like it! >>some hard werking mo'fo's
>>cuz ship probably not known for carrying much dead weight outside of brig! And even then..
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Some say that capstans/bollards/pulleys have no business on knot site..
>>but to me knots are rope mechanix
>>and this proven/line already blurred in Parbuckle, Poldo Tackle, Truckers, Muenter, Friction Hitches etc. as dynamic usage and simply most knots are static usage is only difference
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Knots, like rest of rope mechanix are arc controlled whether Hitch, Bend or Binding usage
Hitch(termination) and Bend(coupling) are externally linear input force converted to controlling arcs
>>input degrades around controlling arcs to final nip
Round Binding is internal (to controlling arcs)radial force w/o conversion to controlling arcs.
>>force not friction degrading around controlling arcs until nips.
Bollard/capstan and pulleys are part of linear fed group, force reducing thru arcs
>>Bend and Hitch all have some bollard/capstan and some pulley arc effects
>>knot arc frictions are between bollard/capstan and pulleys as benchmarks
>>amount of arc friction determines if knot arc mostly reveals/expresses compounding of force(pulley) or compounding of friction reduction of force (capstan/bollard) properties for frictionalized arc hybrid between benchmarks(as found in knot)!
Cosine/Sine are same way: Pure Cosine and Pure Sine are extreme reciprocal benchmarks as bollard/capstan vs. pulley
>>extreme reciprocal benchmarks are framework 'parents' of all cross-pollinated hybrids /points between
>>intermittent points having some influence from each parent benchmark
>>only not showing favoritism/more resemblance to either single parent in center. (at 45 degrees/half of 90 framework, cosine=sine=70.7%)
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To this model, splices are simply permanent knots section of rope mechanix.
>>pushing beyond narrower extremes of knots into bollards/capstans and pulleys
>>widens knowledge base to capstans/bollard and pulley as outer extremes of understanding
>>perhaps to make knots more in power band of understanding, not just on fringe of tattered edge incomplete in some places!
 
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Kenny... That is a masterful writing and presentation you just did. I can get glimmers of good stuff out of it but it's like watching my martial arts instructor over the years... Sometimes when he demonstrated a technique, I would see flutters of movement that I wasn't sure I really saw but after years of working with him started realizing not only what they were but what they really meant. I've got to go back and read your presentation more than once to try to glean more out of it. I have the ABOK... Time to take it out again. Thanks for taking the time.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
Humbled thanx,
Again jealous, but this time i pick martial arts as envy.
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Step son was in and out of Aikido over years w/buddies.
Many times as work power and efficiency tried to align to moves seen and sort.
Categorizing moves seen as some distraction, pressure point and then leverage/pivots/inerita/speed type mechanix etc.
i was always smaller one, wearing hand me downs from my brother 2yrs younger
>>had to be strong/efficient to keep up with everyone else.
>>and as a mouthy lil mo'fo took my hits and also learn to run faster!
Also, a fave book was 'Cheaper by the Dozen'. About man with 12 kids, that was also an efficiency expert for factories.
>>and how he taught kids to be efficient etc. and taught many things
>>had morse code etc. painted on bathroom walls to 'cash in' on lost time while kids were sitting there , or even brushing teeth, bathing etc.
So; smaller guy smoothly beating biggers in Martial Arts always caught my eye.
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i have always thought i saw the effort , bodyweight and equal/opposite of effort as collective inputs in martial arts from what i know of it (mine has been mostly gymnastics, yoga, meditation etc.).
SaveForces_5.png

so am wondering if you see it so?
This is something i found from sitting for years in DdRT of 2/1 over self
>>then distilled out and extended concept to other things!
i think this inventory to collect potentials to orchestrate as inputs where can is one of simplest, overlooked yet powerful change from same scenario have ever found. Seems very counter-intuitive, but still rite there..
 
Kenny, you'd be somewhat disappointed or enlightened(?) as to how less than perfect real pulleys and ropes are, thus messing up the clean numbers in your presentation. I just tested a 2" pulley from the rollgliss kit and had a ratio of 1.20 on the rope tensions, e.g. 179.5 lbs one side and 149 lbs on the other. It was a bushing pulley, but definitely on the big side re arborist rigging. More than one data point confirmed the 1.20 ratio. When combined with the series compounding effect of friction it kind of sucks. Bunch of pulleys doesn't really give you what you'd expect.

To mess up DRT, add in the f=ma transient. It makes the arm work even worse. I got about 10 to 20% f=ma vs the climbers body weight, without race climbing.

Carry on. Always interesting.
 
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  • #15
Wow sorry missed this!
Very important to note that as potential compounds so do the inefficiencys against.
Of course bearings rather than bushings help, but this higher end tweaking gets very expensive at cutting edge.
And, there MUST be inefficiencys at every conversion (i call that the 'or Kennedy bullet would still be flying theory).
Larger sheave to axle gives more leverage over axle frictions as other efficiency increase.
All ya can do is wade in hard properly aligned impacting and sweating portions to the whole

This is much greater loss in Trucker's rope on rope friction. Seen 1.65x real return guesstimate on that.


Moss just added some key details so drenched with experience had to flag:

I bury the lock stitch by first tightening the thread with both hands, balanced pull on each side, I put tape on my baby and ring fingers so my fingers don’t get cut by the thread over entire stitching process. When the stitch is tight/stabilized I pull on one side by gripping the thread and rolling my hand slightly (gives good control) and burying the lock a couple of millimeters. If i pull it through the other side I pull it back in from the opposite side if that makes sense.

When sewing leather with a sewing awl/Speedy Stitcher you can use the needle to bury the lock but sewing cordage pull the needle down the thread out of the way and use your hands, makes a really nice balanced tight stitch and lock bury.
-AJ". Moss@TB.
 
Wow, don't remember that>>so even when write on time, you just simply before yo'time!
>>but i predict you will find can have folks saying you are wrong for mos/yrs, then later get upset saying:
>> well that is common sense why did you even bring it up and waste our time!
(kinda only take logic and emotions like that from wife)
.
To me, tho not seen much w/arbos, binding across arc to make eye has always been typical in many things like cables and old ships.
ABoK opens and closes with general knot stuff and applications chapters, specializing more towards center peak.
Last 2 are the marlingspike chapters : 1 for real mens working /practical and the book's final chapter for making fancies(lil'finger in the air chit).
View attachment 107006
olds-cool !
Multiple legs of tension to these ends (6legs each on last 2) scream out (in mute testimony) very confident in service duty of architecture.
.
These are basis for saying elsewheres that can have another binding as another check if any doubts on sewn eye.
>>thinking that independent stops would handle different than longer series
>>any force trying to 'shi(f)t' primary sewing group would then need to beat another series to prevail
Also ABoK seems to point out that a Half Hitch around as stopper 'ramming' rear end of rest of knot is weaker than where the Half(s) are spaced from the rest of the preceding knot and tail sewn as keeper.
>>i think just as try to not deform the input (Standing Part) to main 'knot carriage' framework, is also best to keep the rear of the 'knot carriage' square too, to then assure whole 'carriage' is square!
>>i would call Square Knot by older name of more sea salt flavor a Reef Knot
>>except for constant reminder in simplest of lacings to keep things 'Square' to purpose!
View attachment 107001
Lesson#1884 also pulls more properly along the Standing Part input than across in this termination(hitch).
>>but effect can be witnessed in couplings (bend) as well i believe.
.
Carriage would be mainframe set squarely, input/outputs set squarely to
>>input imposes load on otherwise passive system, most loaded rope part, so most sensitive to deformity from square
>>output is that ballasting tailerman after bollard, capstan in dynamic functions of same rope mechanix
These show capstan turned to take 'purchase' to 'hold fast'>>moving load and/or tightening rope to
first pic shows/reminds rope like chain is just part of flexible supports class also
View attachment 106998
Toy model most clearly shows usually lesser realized tailer
>>note how these guys always stay low, tucked out of the way as mush as can to keep rope from being obstacle to rest of crew
>>and the tail man on 'rudder' always seems to be the lead man..all else is for naught if he slips
>>modern ship or port may have motorized constant spin capstan, but only pulls rope when lead /pulled by tail(er) !
View attachment 106999
from this bygone age, may really have to look for tailer purposefully.
>>knowing they must be there(also seems he is the only one that can afford shoes even tho not using'em as much! )
View attachment 107000
from a time when men where men, and even smelled like it! >>some hard werking mo'fo's
>>cuz ship probably not known for carrying much dead weight outside of brig! And even then..
.
Some say that capstans/bollards/pulleys have no business on knot site..
>>but to me knots are rope mechanix
>>and this proven/line already blurred in Parbuckle, Poldo Tackle, Truckers, Muenter, Friction Hitches etc. as dynamic usage and simply most knots are static usage is only difference
.
Knots, like rest of rope mechanix are arc controlled whether Hitch, Bend or Binding usage
Hitch(termination) and Bend(coupling) are externally linear input force converted to controlling arcs
>>input degrades around controlling arcs to final nip
Round Binding is internal (to controlling arcs)radial force w/o conversion to controlling arcs.
>>force not friction degrading around controlling arcs until nips.
Bollard/capstan and pulleys are part of linear fed group, force reducing thru arcs
>>Bend and Hitch all have some bollard/capstan and some pulley arc effects
>>knot arc frictions are between bollard/capstan and pulleys as benchmarks
>>amount of arc friction determines if knot arc mostly reveals/expresses compounding of force(pulley) or compounding of friction reduction of force (capstan/bollard) properties for frictionalized arc hybrid between benchmarks(as found in knot)!
Cosine/Sine are same way: Pure Cosine and Pure Sine are extreme reciprocal benchmarks as bollard/capstan vs. pulley
>>extreme reciprocal benchmarks are framework 'parents' of all cross-pollinated hybrids /points between
>>intermittent points having some influence from each parent benchmark
>>only not showing favoritism/more resemblance to either single parent in center. (at 45 degrees/half of 90 framework, cosine=sine=70.7%)
.
To this model, splices are simply permanent knots section of rope mechanix.
>>pushing beyond narrower extremes of knots into bollards/capstans and pulleys
>>widens knowledge base to capstans/bollard and pulley as outer extremes of understanding
>>perhaps to make knots more in power band of understanding, not just on fringe of tattered edge incomplete in some places!

I had a same book. " TheAshley book of knot" My storage has been break in robbery in California and lost all the books & house items had been stolen back then . But I still remember all the pictures. Its a great book. Highly recommend.
 
A digital copy can be gotten here...


Oh my gosh !
Thank you so much !!!!!
Back then in 90's , it wasn't a cheap book for me and also I've got that book by thru ordering from a bookstore I used to work. There were no digital book store or Amazon back then. LoL
So , when I found out what happened to the storage unit I was so bummed out that I remember .
What all happened was a counter clerk at storage facility the guy kept cashing out my checks for the monthly payments then it forced into over dues. put my storage unit into auction. Where his buddy is the only one showing up there for the auctioning day. They thought one stone two birds deal. But found out most of stuff there were science text books. LoL I showed up to see my storage and its completely gone saying you didnt pay for the rents so it's gone to the auction . So I have to give that all up .. lesson learned .lol
 
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