Butt tying or....?

[woodworkingboy]

Thanks. I have decided that given the side lean, that removing the top is the best option, and since I also managed to squeeze a little more money from the temple budget to remove dead wood from the other Pines, a crane will be on site. The log in it's entirety may present some lifting capacity questions, but the 25 ton can get up close, so probably doable for the entire job with it. Falling the tree does have it's intrigues, but as was said about the stone entrance, it really is an irreplaceable thing. What's that saying, 'Intelligence is the better part of valor"? At a shrine job, I saw someone forget to lower the boom on his truck and it crashed into the horizontal part of the stone entrance, a similar affair to what is at my job. It cracked in half as people stood in awe. I later learned that it was a major hassle to find someone still willing to do that particular type of stone work, and plus the materials, ran over twenty grand to have the thing replaced. The work was done hundreds of miles away and had to be trucked in. In addition to that aspect, there is the potential condemnation of the temple members, and they are all over town. There is not the money to bring in a larger crane, so falling the stem might still be the only way to approach it. I'm figuring a whole days wages for a half day's work, so slow and as sure as possible is the plan.

Certainly if anchoring to other trees to hold the butt, they have to be protected against injury. Shrine and temple trees have a special status. Unless cutting corners with nobody looking, or imminent danger, cutting one down requires permission from the prefectural authority. Paper work yada yada yada.....

 

[Jed]

Good thinking Jay. Best of luck.

Murph: Good advice.

 

[Al Smith]

Well all things considered and especially due to the importance of the stone arch to the temple precautions will have to be taken .

I know nothing about the culture and only speculate that for all intents the arch is irreplacable .

 

[woodworkingboy]

Correct Al, the temples come and go being rebuilt, but the stone is pretty much meant for eternity, big quakes aside.

 

[pigwot]

Jay,
Let me know when you start your own A.I.R. program like the one at Limbwalker Tree in Louisville, KY.
It stands for Arborist In Residence, designed to bring visiting arborists in to share knowledge and experience.
I'd sign up for a few weeks. Always wanted to go to Japan.

 

[woodworkingboy]

That would be cool, Pat, I'd love for folks to come over.

 

[Burnham]

Wrap the bases of the anchor trees with 3 foot vertical sections of 2x6 under the cable/chain/rope, for protection.

 

[Bodean]

Wow, How cool of a place and to kinda walk around with you, Jay. Really enjoyed that.

Gary's right, in that video, we tried to keep a bowed stick from bounding off a 40' cliff over a road. Snapped the rope like nothing.
If I was doing something like that, Butt tying with rope is just gonna snap. any size rope. IMO. with that big of a tree.
Chokers would be better. maybe with some rope too. If your gonna go with rope something like inch and an eigth, like stopping a large boat.
Also A stick with no top is more liable to jump big if there is a bow, I've one seen jump at least 12'. Surprised me.
If the priest is ok with a little aerial collateral/speed control of the tree and you feel "Confident" like you said,
the dead top will help absorb/dampen/cushion the stick.


What would the ancients have done with the same tree problem in the ancient times?

 

[woodworkingboy]

The last time I had to anchor against a tree with a heavy duty puller, I used an old wool blanket folded over a bunch of times under the wrap. Those posts with the blanket seems like it would work good.

Cool post, Deva. Your thoughts about the rope breaking based on experience, seems like advise to heed. I might not be able to find anything suitable. I think half inch is about the largest wire rope available around here, and I haven't seen any chain larger than 3/8" or so. I think my bull rope tensile strength is greater than either of those, unless I'm miscalculating. I might have to stop in at some heavy equipment place to see what they can suggest. Got a friend that builds roads, maybe he has something. Yeah, the thought did occur about cushioning the crash with the top. Much iffier to fall it with the top on, regarding getting hung up is the thing. Tied up and then getting hung up wouldn't be a good situation. Pretty large tree too, all things considered. Some real large rope would be cool to find. Marine supply? I see that one inch nylon 3 strand is rated at about 15 tons breaking strength.

Good question about the ancients....stone and stone workers were probably abundant then. So were guys with swords that probably didn't want you messing with the temples.

 

[SkwerI]

If you go through the stand and do all your trimming and deadwood removal first, you could use all the brush to build a bed for the tree to land on. The trunk can't bounce unless it lands on something hard enough to bounce off of.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Great idea! Perhaps the snow will be a lot higher by then too. It's looking very possible with the winter we are having.

 

[Burnham]

It can with a bow in the stem like that one has, Brian. It's not so much a bounce as it is swinging the butt high like one end of the runner on a rocking chair.

 

[murphy4trees]

Once that log hits ground, it can go up and laterally wildly, BUT its not going to go back if it lands flat.. That is why it seems like the best move is to throw it forward out past the stone.. though you have to be there to make that call.. it just looks like it would work from the pictures.. another idea might be to take a lot of trips with the bull line, between the two trees..

 

[Bodean]

Jay, FWIW, It was 3/4 Samson stable braid that snapped.
Just in case others do it differently, I set up a butt tie,
with a standard half hitch and running bowline above the face cut and a half hitch below the face cut.
Good luck, hope to see a video of the shot.

 

[sawinredneck]

Totally off the wall idea here, and I hope someone can say if it's doable even!
I remember the video Riverrat put up with Charley P lowering a stem with a GRCS slowly. Now, if the crane can't handle the entire weight of the butt, might it be strong enough to "guide and slowly lower" the top of the stem with a thick hinge?
Meaning to get it tied off at the top, face and back cut it, then use wedges to start the drop and have the crane control the momentum as it comes down?
This may be more risk than reward, I don't know, just thinking of ideas.

 

[pigwot]

I would fear that the crane holding back the mass against the hinge might allow it to break through the hinge and slide back toward the stone archway.
Also, the trunk will want to twist and could drop and shock-load the crane... never a good thing.

 

[sawinredneck]

This is why I asked rather than suggested!

 

[DMc]

... Now, if the crane can't handle the entire weight of the butt, might it be strong enough to "guide and slowly lower" the top of the stem with a thick hinge?...

That will work if the crane can be positioned towards the lay so as the log is laid down the crane's holding capacity increases as the load increases.

Jay, my original post was strongly influenced by two things. First, you have experience and are not a cowboy cutter but a careful thinker with respect for the dangers you face. Second, your calm and matter of fact narrative on how you planned the fall led me to believe that, once again, my ability to judge space and angels from a video sucked.

I do not see a lot of wiggle room in this job. When I make reference to a " what if " that does not include something of a high likelihood but rather a slight or off chance. If the fall will not work if the butt tie fails, then it is primary component not a "what if". Do not be afraid to alter your plans if upon further study you feel that is the best course. Do not allow the priests desire for a one piece log compromise your reputation by doing something you are not sure of.

Dave

 

[woodworkingboy]

Dave, I posted (below) before seeing yours, i believe thinking along similar lines about the weight factor and crane position. Good thoughts you have too, about the general take on this job...thanks.

Andy, I haven't ever seen a tree lowered that way before, attached to the hinge as long as is possible, but butt tying in combination seems like it might be a possibility, similar to what Burnham was saying about rigging off the tree next to it, if the length was suitable. At least if the hinge broke, you wouldn't be shock loading the rope keeping the butt in place, like if the tree took a big bounce after hitting the ground. Pretty tall tree even with the top removed, and given the weight and degree of boom extension, not sure how that would play out? It might be less a possibility of shock loading the crane, then the weight being too much when the tree gets to some point when being lowered. When the crane guy came out to take a look at it, as he was talking to himself, he said something about having to disconnect the computer. Actually, something he does pretty regular, but having done mucho jobs with him, this particular tree does seem to present a somewhat unusual set of circumstances. The heavier weight trees that are questionable, usually get bounced in to close proximity to the crane, then lowered with the boom being quite vertical. On this one, I assume he would want to position right in front there outside the entrance, an advantage in being so lose to the pick to begin with, but I have never seen a tree that size lowered in one piece with the 25 ton. The crane guy often has his mentor working with us, a retired gent that handles a small saw well, and sometimes also sits at the controls. Between those two guys, I think they have seen about everything. I hope to again get the chance to talk about possibilities with the operator before he just shows up at the job. Whatever plan that get devised, might entail having obtained some heavier than usual rope, or something.

 

[Al Smith]

Wrap the bases of the anchor trees with 3 foot vertical sections of 2x6 under the cable/chain/rope, for protection.

--or use the thread cut from an old tire for softeners .--junk yard dog type here ya know

 

[woodworkingboy]

If you guys wanted to attach a rope to a tree that was likely going to be heavy shock loaded, and wanted to least reduce the rope strength, what method would you use? I was thinking a timber hitch with a lot of wraps around the standing part, and with enough rope to go back and forth as much as possible between the anchoring tee and the one being felled.

With close proximity for an anchor point, I was also thinking about doubling the rope, maybe twisting it around itself, if that would add anything?

Thanks.

 

[Jack]

If you guys wanted to attach a rope to a tree that was likely going to be heavy shock loaded, and wanted to least reduce the rope strength, what method would you use? ...

Tensionless Hitch

 

[Burnham]

My answer as well, Jack. I don't know if it's the best in this scenario, but it certainly should be considered.

 

[Al Smith]

I generally use a heavy nylon strap .It won't tear the bark up like a steel chocker or a chain .The one in the pic is rated for 5,000 choked and 8,000 in a sling .I've got a few heavier that are rated for12 ,000 choked .

 

[SkwerI]

Remember that multiple wraps will divide the load on each wrap. If you use a 5000 lb rope and take 5 wraps between both trees then you theoretically have 25,000 lbs of restraining force. Just as a spider web can restrain much larger prey if there are enough strands.