Problem with MS461 Idle

rfwoody

Treehouser
Joined
Jun 1, 2017
Messages
800
Location
North Mississippi
My MS461 would not idle. (conked off after idling a few seconds)
I played around with the screws myself... got nowhere... and took it to the dealer.

I asked them to get all screws adjusted properly.
and specifically
*** Make sure it idles properly
*** Make sure the chain doesn't turn while idling.

Got a call today and they said it was ready (they had replaced the carburetor)

... BUT... they said ...

The chain turns a few links every 15 seconds or so.

They said that is the best they could get it.

2 questions please:

1) is this "normal" operation for a Stihl dealer? (i.e. "this is the best we can get it")
2) my owners manual says the carburetor is warrantied for 2 years.. they said it is not.

Any help/comments appreciated!
 
Quality of a given dealership and the technicians they employ can vary a lot. Might try taking it to another shop.

That being said, there's no great mystery to resetting a traditional carb. Search for a tutorial on resetting the screws. Now fine tuning a carb is a dark art for most of us, myself included. Autotune has me in it's grips. . .
 
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  • #3
Thanks Sam.

I called the Stihl regional representative.
He said it didn't make sense to him to change the carb unless there was something wrong with it.
He said it seemed obvious there was something wrong with the clutch/assembly.

My dealer said they couldn't get it to run with the carb that was on it and so they had to replace the carb to get it to run.
My dealer said the carb wasn't defective (i.e. warranty), but insinuated it was "clogged up" or something.

At this point it is my word against theirs... because I was running it, and running fine (except no idle w/o chain turning) just before I brought it in.

Waiting to hear back from Stihl rep after my dealer gets back to him.
 
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  • #5
Sucks when dealers are like that. I find it difficult to find good service anywhere.

Yeah, I'm hoping for the best on this with this dealer
... but I've got another one in mind I haven't tried yet to take my next problem to.

It's enough to make someone want to learn to diagnose/fix them oneself.

Or sending them to someone like the Chainsaw Guy and pay for shipping but it would probably be foolishly expensive.

This dealer (i.e. the owner) has always done me right.
This may just be a case of his workers being confused or something.
 
If the chain is spinning and the idle is not running to high it could be a broken clutch spring but in your case that does not sound correct. It could be that they are getting weak. They are easy to check, just pop the clutch drum off by removing the little c clip (don't let it go flying). You can then see the springs and all it takes is a pair of plyers to pop them off and on (don't get your face to close in case your plyers slip, you'll whack yourself with the plyers. On adjustable carbs there is usually the starting setting for the jet screws on thr side of the saw or the owners manual will explain it. Fine tuning is done from that point.
 
The dealership doesn't make enough money on rebuilding carbs so they don't do it. For what they have to charge in labor it's almost as much as the cost of a brand new carb. So rather than argue with customers over the labor costs, they just slap a new carb on. So easy even a monkey can do it.

That said, I'd insist on getting my old carb back. Nothing wrong with it, just need to clean it. Nice to have a backup.

Here's Madsen's carb tuning page. Keep in mind this was printed before the computer controlled carbs sold today.
http://www.madsens1.com/saw_carb_tune.htm

I also agree on checking the clutch springs. Sometimes crud will build up in the clutch assembly, especially if you like to grease the roller bearing in there very often. The grease gets hard and slings out and builds up in the sliding clutch parts, effectively jamming them open and not allowing them to retract all the way. This will cause the clutch to sometimes contact the drum even at an idle, which spins the chain.

Of course a tach will tell you if the engine is spinning too fast at an idle or if the idle speed is correct. And that will tell you if it's the carb or the clutch.
 
One broken clutch spring can cause this or weak springs as well. I've got two top handles that I need to address now that I've read this post. Damn. No rest for the wicked
 
There's wear too, just at the contact point between the spring's hears and the clutch's masses. Both erode with the tiny but countless movements. That gives some slack in the mechanism and allow the clutch to engage a bit time to time. Test the mechanism, it should be held thigh by the springs and normally you don't be able to rock the parts by hand. If they rattle, you won't wait too long before a failure.
 
And the most simple explanation of the chain still moving is chain a bit too loose...but you've probably already gone past that...
 
Ok...I was taught to have the idle on a top handle saw fairly high...and check for chain creep with the chainbrake off...if chain creeps, tighten it up a bit.
Balance between idle speed and chain tension.
I understand how it might not apply to big saws with long bars...but then I don't use them (unless you consider 20' a long bar...not)
 
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  • #13
Thanks a lot, All, for the great feedback, and advice!

Here is "the REST of the story" just to circle back around....

The Stihl rep for my area, K. C. (Casey?) Jones --- from Malvern, Arkansas, Benjo --- said the chain creep sounded like a clutch problem.
He had my dealer ship my chainsaw to him.
He replaced the clutch (did not charge labor) and sent it back.

I have my saw now and it runs great and no chain creep at idle.

It was very strange to me that the dealer couldn't get my saw to start when I had it running that day (or day before?)... and therefore replaced the carburetor........ but dealer has been helpful to me over the years so I am just chalking that up to one of those things.

Learned 2 things from this (and from you all here):

1) Chain creep [is|can be|is usually] caused by clutch problems.
2) The Stihl rep warned about using the 2-in-1 file guides improperly... i.e. bearing down hard on them. ----- what happens when you bear down hard is that the round files will flex and the depth gauge flat file will cut the depth gauges lower than they should be --- thus causing more drag in the wood, thus bogging down more, thus wearing the clutch out faster......... so I learned (when I use the 2-in-1 file guide again) to just apply light/no downward pressure.

I have ordered a clutch for my 029 because the chain has been spinning badly on it at idle (and 2 different shops didn't fix it (over a year ago or so)).... therefore I haven't been using it..... so looking forward to replacing the clutch on it to see if it fixes the problem.

ANOTHER BIG "TAKE-AWAY"....

This whole thing has caused me to see that chainsaw maintenance is not "rocket-science".
When I spent 2 hours a day in driving to/from work, my time was scarce and I was always RUSHING between tasks and didn't take time to spend to do things carefully --- I would trade money for time and hired stuff out. -------------- now, I think I will take the time to learn to do this chainsaw maintenance myself.


Do you think those chainsaw (inductive?) tachometers from Madsen's are a good enough all purpose tachometer for chainsaws?
 
A clutch that is engaged and under load rarely wear excessively. If you have saw in low rpm were clutch engage, disengage all the time that will stress and wear out clutch prematurely.

Most common cause for chain moving on idle is too high idle.

To high idle screw setting is common on saws adjusted to compensate for other issues as airleaks, bad carbs, plugs etc.
 
A 461 (newer model , homeowner us is not going to have that much wear, Typically, n normal use. I have seen saws with bad clutches after a brazilian hours.
 
I have to add to these last couple of posts, and think you may be waaay off the mark on your conclusions as to the cause of your chain movement on idle issue.

It takes a whole lot of hours to wear out clutch springs...a WHOLE lot. From what I have understood of your saw work history Robert, I cannot make those two realities coincide.

I think your saw is simply idling too high, myself. The reasons for than could be several.
 
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  • #18
Thanks Burnham, Sean, Magnus.
Great info.

Yeah, I think I am going to start trying to work on my own chainsaws....(if you want something done right, do it yourself).

I just put a new clutch on my 029 whose chain has been turning on idle... and it is still turning but not as bad.

The chain was doing a real loose spinning thing... more than just a "creep"
Now it is not doing that... just creeping a little (whoever worked on it last had left off the big "washer" below the clutch. It makes me wonder if that would have contributed to the extreme "creeping").

Next I will work on the idle (and recheck all the adjustment screws).

Can anyone recommend a good inductive tachometer for chainsaws?
 
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  • #21
Peter,

I've been doing a little research (until somebody who knows what they are talking about chimes in)...

And I have found this so far:

1) Get one with a .5 second refresh rate
2) Lots of people are recommending this one: http://www.amickssuperstore.com/DTI_2_Cycle_Two_Stroke_Hand_Held_Tachometer_p/dti%20tech-tach%20tt-20k%20tach.htm

Also Madsen's has one (they seem like a no-nonsense operation like they know what they are talking about (?)) ... for $99.95

People also seem to make a distinction between the old style "regular" chainsaw ignition/carb systems and the newer kind... as if the newer kind can cause older tachs to read wrong? --- this may be my own misunderstanding.

There are some on Amazon for under $30 but it looks like you have to hook them up.

So hopefully somebody who knows what they are talking about will answer! :)
 
I have one and I think I got it from Madsen's, not sure. Madsen's does not have an online store but you can download their catalog. The tach is on page 85 and it's $72.40. The one I have has a built in battery that is not replaceable but mine is probably 7-8 years old and still works. Single wire with a clip, you just clip it on the plug wire or you can even clip it onto a screw head or other metal on the saw and it will pick up the rpm reading.

http://www.madsens1.com/catalog.htm
 
Peter,

I've been doing a little research (until somebody who knows what they are talking about chimes in)...

And I have found this so far:

1) Get one with a .5 second refresh rate
2) Lots of people are recommending this one: http://www.amickssuperstore.com/DTI_2_Cycle_Two_Stroke_Hand_Held_Tachometer_p/dti%20tech-tach%20tt-20k%20tach.htm

Also Madsen's has one (they seem like a no-nonsense operation like they know what they are talking about (?)) ... for $99.95

People also seem to make a distinction between the old style "regular" chainsaw ignition/carb systems and the newer kind... as if the newer kind can cause older tachs to read wrong? --- this may be my own misunderstanding.

There are some on Amazon for under $30 but it looks like you have to hook them up.

So hopefully somebody who knows what they are talking about will answer! :)



Thats a good tach. 20tt 20k at amicks.


Whoever is buying a tach read before buying a crap slow tach that isnt .5 refresh. https://chainsawrepair.createaforum.com/stickys-of-how-to-basics/chainsaw-tachometer-choices/

Even have feedback on the newer ones stihl has their name on like the 9. To slow for the money but getting better then their slower 7 8.

My tach is around 10 years old now.
 
I don't set saws by tach, its too misguiding. Too much that can go wrong. I set them after performance. When they run at its best its usually a great place to be.
Ignitions today is a bit trixy and can fool ear Not easy to hear differance on fourstroke and limiter.
Usually if its not a modded saw its 20% under rev limiter, but that is not nesseserily the best performance for you.
 
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