Soil Health Issue?

Underwor

Treehouser
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Avon, IL
As a few of you may know, I retired from the urban forestry side of things a couple of times and at age 70 decided to do what I originally studied in college in the 60's. I work for a forest management company that has several walnut plantations here in Illinois. It is interesting trying to recall what you learned that long ago and then filed away.
This thread is a spin off from Jim and Dave's highly popular Sustainable Ag discussion. It deals with two fields, side by side, same soil type and fertilization regimen (100#N - 25#P aerial applied this past spring). The differences are that one was planted in 2009, the other in 2011 (hint: reverse the fields based on your first inclination), and one was in standard corn soybean crop rotation prior to planting while the other was a pasture with Osage Orange and multiflora rose cover that was bulldozed prior to planting.

I had a Haney Soil Health evaluation done with samples taken from the grass area you can see in the two side by side photos. I did this to be sure that chemical applications in the tree rows and such would have less effect (I think). In the results, Cooper is the best looking site. I will also include a document on interpreting these tests.

What do you think????
 

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Here is the explanation of Haney Test. It won't let me attach a .docx file. Look up at wardlab.com
 
Good to hear from you, Bob. Interesting stuff. Could you be more specific on the kind of feedback are you looking for?
 
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Good to hear from you Dave. I am thinking that the younger field got a big boost from N supplied by micro organisms in the soil that was in pasture, which was not available in the cropped land since regular fertilizing had eliminated the need for these organisms to exist in sufficient numbers to react without the annual dose of nitrates and anhydrous ammonia. The younger field has had an extra month and a half or two months growth due to early leaf fall on the older site. This is my first year observing these fields, so I do not know if this has been an annual event although I suspect it has.

Temp is about 45 hear today. I miss the Dakotas where this would just be a light jacket day and not a winter coat day. Dang humidity!!!!
 
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No Jim. Just started working with company this spring. Just noticed a strong relationship between former crop land and pasture.
 
Are the management practices the same on both sites? The Cooper site seems to have a more aggressive weed suppression and also heavier stocking numbers. Can you get the GPS coordinates for each site?
 
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Managed the same. In row weed control done same day Cooper was planted into pasture in 2011. Harrison in 2009 in corn/soybean ground. All trees on 7’ centers in 12’ rows. Only fertilizer was this past spring with 100#N. Urea About 1 mile north and 1 mile east of Aledo IL. On southwest corner
 
Just saw this. Haney, I just looked at your link, that is Rick out of the ARS in Temple.

I deal with him on the vendor side, covering the equipment he uses for TOC, C, N, and metals analysis. Hit me offline (or on) if you have any questions on the analytical techniques employed.

Ward lab does great work. So does Agvise and Servitech.
 
Perhaps add a section with a mulch bed around trees to test the effects against the others? Kind of a forest soil vs grassland soil kind of thing?
 
I am thinking that the younger field got a big boost from N supplied by micro organisms in the soil that was in pasture, which was not available in the cropped land since regular fertilizing had eliminated the need for these organisms to exist in sufficient numbers to react without the annual dose of nitrates and anhydrous ammonia. The younger field has had an extra month and a half or two months growth due to early leaf fall on the older site. This is my first year observing these fields, so I do not know if this has been an annual event although I suspect it has.

Hey, Bob, Sylvia here. Have been wrapped up in getting to TCI EXPO so couldn't respond earlier. However, I think your thoughts on the microbes could be part of the answer, as this would be a classical response from pastureland transformed to agriculture stimulating the release of the nutrients. Another thing is the microbes in the soil might have been more "in-tuned" with long-lived woody perennials already as opposed to the corn-soy specific microbes.

One other thing that pops to mind is the cultural practices prior to planting. You don't say whether the corn-soy was conventional ag or for how long it had been in that rotation. But if conventional ag, using tillage, there could well be a plow plan under those trees. Whereas the bulldozed osage orange and roses, which had not undergone years of tillage (if that is the case), could have much less compaction; in addition, ripping trees and stumps out of the ground has a nice tendency to open up the soil. Just some thoughts.
 
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Good to hear from you Sylvia. All sites were ripped to about 3? to mark rows prior to planting. Cropping had been done for at least 15+ years with average yield for the area. All treatments following planting are identical. Only difference is cropped planting is 2 years older.
Nancy says hi!
 
Bob, Sylvia here again. We know in arboriculture to look well into the past for issues that might affect future performance. Since management has been "identical" since planting and the earlier planting is not performing up to the more recent, then something is different. A common mantra in virtually every class or lecture I attend is "look deeper, look farther". How was the corn-soy managed? Was it with chemical burn-down? I have heard some very interesting/disturbing facts coming out re affects on crops planted after use of herbicides when they don't possess the "resistance". I keep thinking about the potential for a plow pan. If they just ripped the rows where the trees were to be planted, the plow plan could still exist on either side. I wonder what their initial growth rate was.

And give my best to Nancy as well!!
 
Bob, Sylvia again. What soil series are we looking at here? Without having an address or GPS coordinates, I am guessing at the sites and the soils vary tremendously there side-by-side. It just depends on where the orchards are situated. I am seeing some soils with hydric conditions and some not. Some saying "severely eroded", densic materials at varying depths but still within tree rooting zones, moderately well-drained to poorly drained, some argillic horizons with gleying and some without. Differences in water-holding capacity, etc., etc.
 
Bob, Sylvia, and yet again. I would promise this is the last question or comment, but since you know me...:D

An assumption that we have made is that the trees are identical. But are they? The differences in the two sites are strikingly similar throughout those areas. So I will ask, maybe the obvious, but in an effort to rule out a potential contributing factor. Were these trees bought from the same source, the same hybrid/cultivar, the same rootstock, scion?

A question that has little to do with anything....these trees were planted for timber production?
 
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Sylvia and all, I got distracted from this site for a while. Here are answers to your most recent questions. As far as I can tell they are all from the same source. The trees are from Perdue University research. I visited with 3 of the professors from their forestry department who visited last fall. They had no explanation for sure on the differences, but the one who dealt more with the agronomy side seemed to agree with me that it likely had a lot to do with soil health at time of planting. None of the fields were fertilized in the first couple of years, so they started with what was available in the soil at that time. I have seen several other examples of the phenomena over the years My brother farms a field that had an air strip on it for many years. The area of air strip still has corn that is taller and greener even after 5 years or so in ag production. A site south of Prairie City had tiling work done a year ago that mixed some of the fence row and road ditch soil with the crop land area. There were individual stalks of corn or small clumps in the area last summer that stood up to 2' taller than the rest. Since we know that the genetics of these crops is such that all are normally carbon copies of each other, this seems to show that there were very limited areas of fertility difference. I have photos of work done there this winter and hope to see similar results next summer. If I do I will try to post the images to this site.
As you suggested, I think I am going to try to incorporate a couple of buckets of soil from Cooper around the base of a tree or two in Harrison this year. Don't know how long it will take for a change to show, but if it is as quick a the corn field I should see something, even if it is just holding its leaves longer in the fall for a first year response. As they say leaves grow trees.
I will attach the soil maps of the sites. Also a deal I wrote up for one of my online soils labs from another site.View attachment Harrison&Cooper Trust_Soil_Map.pdfView attachment Norvell Brain Spasm.pdf

Photos come from center of 279B soil type
 
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Yes Sylvia the trees were planted for timber production. They are looking into nut production, but the varieties are not specifically selected for that so prices would be for forest run nuts. All plantings total about 1500-2000 acres trees planted at about 500 per acre (my estimates). Best stands coming up on first pre-commercial thinning (about 6" dbh) in next couple of years. All fields fertilized last year were pruned this fall, it will be interesting to see how they respond this year. Think rest of fields will be fertilized this spring. It is amazing how close the aerial applicator comes spreading urea which is about the same weight as Styrofoam. Will add a picture of line between plots in one field. Second photo is test strips in Harrison, with Cooper in the foreground.

View attachment 84637View attachment 84638
 
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