How to Mitigate Risk of TIP Branch Breaking?

rfwoody

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As an aspiring embryo climber, one main fear is my Tie In Point branch breaking... either my initial one from the ground, or else a secondary one moving in the tree.

Would y'all share some advice on how to make sure you have a solid TIP before trusting your weight to it?
 
It is very hard to break a branch when it is loaded in compression so always strive for this as you work a tree. When you set your line from the ground, know exactly what it is set on. Use binoculars if you need to. Be concerned with movement within the canopy when you load test your rope. Movement of that sort is almost always due to a lateral load force.
 
Watch your angles. As the rope gets farther away from vertical, things can get screwy at the tie in point. And start paying really close attention to how wood of different species bends and breaks so you know how small you can go and still be safe.
 
When I set a line for SRT I make sure its over TWO branches or in a big V....I always look to see if the branch broke would my line lay over another branch and catch or would line go to ground....
 
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@DMc: What do you mean by "...a branch when it is loaded in compression" ? Would you please give an example?

@Bounce: Thanks!

@BOTS: That seems to be a really good advantage for SRT, which would be hard to do with DdRT.
 
SRT doubles the load on your tie in compared to DdRT. Also you have to contend with working around your loaded lifeline all the way down the tree. Eventually one day you will reach around the trunk with your saw and accidentally cut your lifeline. SRT may be all well and good for advanced climbers but I would never put a rookie climber in a tree with a saw and SRT.

I'll go back to my corner now and try to keep my mouth shut for the rest of the evening. Seems I tend to offend too many people when I speak my mind.
 
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haha, thanks a lot, Brian/Skwerl2 .... I appreciate the word of caution!..... yes, I want to keep it as simple as possible for myself. DdRT like I was taught at my class... Blake's hitch and/or (open) hitch pulley system with a Michoacan hitch. I also enjoy trying to understand what and why and how everybody else does too.
 
Brian is right on SRT doubling the load to a certain extent. It's not quite doubled due to friction but also many of us switch to a canopy anchor upon reaching the tie in which puts it even with DDRT. I do a two man bounce test from multiple angles if set from the ground whether it's isolated or not if I can't clearly see a solid tie in.
 
The closer you are to the trunk the stronger the wood is.
Sometimes you can get over two three limbs d.r.t depending on situation.

PS I love your honesty brain...
 
@DMc: What do you mean by "...a branch when it is loaded in compression" ? Would you please give an example?

When you lean on a walking stick, you are loading the wood fibers in compression. Think of how strong a wooden arrow is to withstand the force of being shot from a bow and then slamming into a target and yet how easy it is to break when you bend it sideways.

This is true of all wood fiber regardless of tree species or structure or whether you climb it SRT or DdRT.
 
SRT doubles the load on your tie in compared to DdRT. Also you have to contend with working around your loaded lifeline all the way down the tree. Eventually one day you will reach around the trunk with your saw and accidentally cut your lifeline. SRT may be all well and good for advanced climbers but I would never put a rookie climber in a tree with a saw and SRT.

I'll go back to my corner now and try to keep my mouth shut for the rest of the evening. Seems I tend to offend too many people when I speak my mind.

Ya you always did, but for the most part it was entertaining.. of course that's when you weren't giving e a hard time!
 
When you lean on a walking stick, you are loading the wood fibers in compression. Think of how strong a wooden arrow is to withstand the force of being shot from a bow and then slamming into a target and yet how easy it is to break when you bend it sideways.

This is true of all wood fiber regardless of tree species or structure or whether you climb it SRT or DdRT.
We call it column loading. Good advice by all.
I think Rich alluded to it, but in SRT if you can isolate a good TIP from the ground, you can make a canopy tie, which of course brings the load on that limb down to your body weight. The only problem with that is that sometimes your tie in point is higher than you intended to climb. If so, you can leave a long enough tail on the knot to reach it and pull it down to your working height when you're ready to descend.
Great advice from Scott on the base tie, go over two limbs if possible.
 
Multiple overhead anchor points.. if you use 1/2" true blue you can go natural crotch..
Generally one good high central point, then a second crotch or block out away from the main stem, at least on eastern hardwoods..
I rig through some pretty small branch unions with no problems that way. Also love a $6 shackle on a 6-8' piece of 1/2 or 9/16 line to use as a sling for a satellite rigging point (out away from the stem...
 
ALWAYS test your TIP from the ground before committing to it. Bounce on it, preferably with another person. Every now and then you'll break out a tiny twig or stub your line was over that you didn't see from the ground and your system will drop a bit...better to do this 6" from the ground than any higher!

Knowing your trees is important, what I can do on Baygrape I could NEVER do on ash...as far as size and bendiness.
I agree with Brian, SRT and beginners is not a good idea, especially with a base tie. I climb most stuff base tie and am always thinking about where my 'down leg' is.
 
I still consider myself a beginner, but I did make a fast transition to srt. I 2nd what everyone else has already said. With a base tie I try to tear my TIP out before I ever start up. If it holds I'm good. I head straight to My tip if possible( that's my first priority anyway) , tie in and pull just enough slack to tie a canopy anchor of some kind. So far I've always left my base tie as somewhat of a backup.
I'm still always aware of where the line is to keep from damaging it in any way.
Rec climbing is the only time I have gone with only a base tie that I can think of anyway.
 
Brian, If you tie a running bowline and capture your limb/tie in... it doesn't double it...
Only doubles it if you base tie.... FYI or at least how i understand it.

Just like BOTS says... if you can at least get it over two limbs you're golden.
SRT rips.... If you can't srt then at least DDrt off a pulley that' you've thrown over the tree...
 
Something I hear a lot about Classic Doubled Rope Technique is that it doesn't double the load on the TIP as you terminate the line on the same point. True, when you're stationary, hanging from a doubled-rope system, it splits the load between the two legs. However when you're ascending, pulling on one leg and being hoisted by the other, it seems to me it would in fact double the load, as you're pulling one leg with enough force to lift the other. Hence the MA of doubled rope. That force has to go somewhere. It goes into the TIP. So on a traditional DbRT system, you're sporadically doubling the force on your TIP during ascent.

Am I wrong on this? Been thinking on it for awhile now. . .
 
No, as you pull down on one leg you're removing the load from the other leg. Total load remains the same, just distributed unevenly between the two legs. The only additional forces would be from friction in the TIP or shock loads from bouncing.
 
Man. . . It's like trying to wrap my head around the idea of an infinite universe. hahaha

So the friction saver (let's assume a friction saver, sleeve, ring-ring, whatever) is acting as a pulley, essentially a series of levers. When I put the necessary force into the 'Pull' leg to raise the 'lift' leg. . . I just don't see how it's any different from an STR base tie when you're actually ascending. Hanging, sure, I get that, but during the up stroke, forgetting about the reduction in force from hip-thrusting, you'd have your body weight on both legs running through a pulley (friction saver). I need a load cell. . . Wait, I NEED a load cell!! :lol:

Cheers.
 
Neither doubles the load.
SRT magnifies the load, can optimized the loading, and can have back-up crotches.

DdRT means you have to have no snags in your standing-end in order to descend in an emergency.
Rarely do I go higher than my 120' main climbing line allows me to get down from lickety split, in an emergency, with a choked climb line. If redirected with a base tie, I tire two ropes together.
.
I don't know how many climbers carry their ropes. Carrying your rope mitigates the DdRT trail from locking up in a stub/ crotch/ branch or being caught in brush in the ground.



Eventually, you will cut your rope or come off the end of your DdRT, same as you will cut your SRT-down strand to base tie, and kill people on the ground by dropping stuff in them.

Or you won't through safe work practices, including a full-life-support, secondary tie-in while cutting.
 
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