I lied.

flashover604

TreeHouser
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
443
Location
Lancaster Ohio
Ok, well, maybe lied is strong...

I while back I posted in a thread that I wasn't a tree man, and was only interested in cleaning up MY yard. I said that I "wasn't going to start Zach's Whack-a-tree Company...

Well...

i cleaned up my trees. I payed a place $350 to drop the big problem ash. (By the way, that dude made $350 for twenty minutes of work. I felt so defeated watching him cut that tree down...) since then, I've had a few people ask me to take care of some storm damage. Limbs on the ground already, limbs broken but hanging, some small dead limbs removed, and a couple small trees taken down and removed. The folks I've worked for basically said that their problems must've been too small for the big companies because they'd either quote $200-$250 to remove a limb already on the ground or not even show up to give an estimate.

I checked into insurance and I qualified for a policy if I want it. I LIKE doing this kind of work. I enjoy it. If I can do some small jobs after I get off work from my main job and pay for my hobbies, I'd be thrilled. I've never run a business. I don't know anything about it. Luckily I've got several friends that have started and grown successful businesses that have given me some pointers, but none were tree related. I'd like your opinions.

If YOU were to be in my shoes, how would YOU go about it? WOULD you go about it?

From what I've read already, Jerry's "Fundamentals of General Tree Work" is required reading. I assume it covers the physical aspect only, with no business advice.

Thanks in advance, I really appreciate this forum and the advice that comes from it. It's a rare place...
 
$350 for 20 minutes of work is pretty much a rip-off. Believe me, not many tree jobs are that lucrative.

I can't imagine starting a tree biz with zero experience.
 
Weekend warrior tree guys.... never made sense to me. Just being honest Zack, maybe getting the stuff on the ground is safe. Climbing felling and rigging never seemed like good hobbies to me but there are plenty who do it on treebuzz.com.

To add an edit: it can be done and safely but the skillz you learn in just one year with a production crew can make you 1000% more efficient.
 
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  • #6
$350 for 20 minutes of work is pretty much a rip-off.

I agree. That was the lowest quote I got from someone with insurance. He looked at it, notched it, wedged it, collected $350 and got in his truck. I called six places. Two weren't insured, and the insured quotes ranged from $350 to $450 to put it on the ground and walk away. It was $750-$1000 if they took the wood.

I guess I look at the potential with the small work and see what is being charged as an opportunity.

$200 to remove a limb from a Bradford pear that's already on the ground...

$350 to remove a Japanese maple that's less than ten feet tall, and leave the stump...

$700 to remove three dead 1.5" diameter limbs in a twenty five foot tall oak and remove two 6' tall shrubs and leave the stumps...

These are all actual prices that people have paid recently, to tree services.

All three jobs were done from the ground. No climbing. The oak tree they used a pole saw with two sections. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems like an opportunity to me. I don't need to climb and dismantle trees. If the market is so good that a tree service can charge $200 to remove a single limb from a yard, if they'll even come and look at it, am I wrong for thinking that I could do it for a little less? According to the homeowner it didn't even fill the bed of a Toyota Tacoma.

$200.

Would you pass that up for $150? $100? He couldn't get anyone to even look at it. The only guy to come out was the guy that did it for $200. Maybe I'm wrong, I certainly have been before, but I think I can handle a downed limb. I understand that you guys have years of experience doing massive trees and complicated removals. I get that. I'm not implying that I could, would. or should do those kind of jobs, but it's hard for me to see people getting ripped off without thinking to myself that I could do as good a job for less money on the small, easy stuff.

Am I wrong? I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I'm sorry if that's how I may sound. I appreciate your advice. And I listen to it as evidenced by the $350 ash tree. If the professionals don't want to mess with it for a decent price, who's supposed to do it?
 
A quick story...

Last spring I decided to partner up with an old friend. He had no experience but smart and hard working. There were things I thought he would bring to the business end that would balance things out. He was excited to learn and bought climbing gear, I showed him a few things. He decided to trim his parent's trees one weekend and filleted his arm open with a handsaw, ER visit. I felt bad but it was his choice to do that. Things didn't work out so I told him I could get him a job with any crew in town if he wanted to keep learning... "I'll never do that." Was his reply. Okay... My brother saw him a few months later at an ArborMaster course, it just seems like an odd way to go about it.
 
Those sound like good jobs to start with. They are usually the most profitable too.
 
I agree. That was the lowest quote I got from someone with insurance. He looked at it, notched it, wedged it, collected $350 and got in his truck. I called six places. Two weren't insured, and the insured quotes ranged from $350 to $450 to put it on the ground and walk away. It was $750-$1000 if they took the wood.

I guess I look at the potential with the small work and see what is being charged as an opportunity.

$200 to remove a limb from a Bradford pear that's already on the ground...

$350 to remove a Japanese maple that's less than ten feet tall, and leave the stump...

$700 to remove three dead 1.5" diameter limbs in a twenty five foot tall oak and remove two 6' tall shrubs and leave the stumps...

These are all actual prices that people have paid recently, to tree services.

All three jobs were done from the ground. No climbing. The oak tree they used a pole saw with two sections. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems like an opportunity to me. I don't need to climb and dismantle trees. If the market is so good that a tree service can charge $200 to remove a single limb from a yard, if they'll even come and look at it, am I wrong for thinking that I could do it for a little less? According to the homeowner it didn't even fill the bed of a Toyota Tacoma.

$200.

Would you pass that up for $150? $100? He couldn't get anyone to even look at it. The only guy to come out was the guy that did it for $200. Maybe I'm wrong, I certainly have been before, but I think I can handle a downed limb. I understand that you guys have years of experience doing massive trees and complicated removals. I get that. I'm not implying that I could, would. or should do those kind of jobs, but it's hard for me to see people getting ripped off without thinking to myself that I could do as good a job for less money on the small, easy stuff.

Am I wrong? I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I'm sorry if that's how I may sound. I appreciate your advice. And I listen to it as evidenced by the $350 ash tree. If the professionals don't want to mess with it for a decent price, who's supposed to do it?

I think it's interesting that you say you have no idea how to go about business matters, but then clearly state that $200 for doing something is a rip off. I'm not trying to be rude by any means, just want to put things in perspective. It's not necessarily the time they spend there. How far did they have to drive to get there? What's insurance cost? Marketing expense? Were they super swamped with work and just did this because they didn't want to be like the rest of the guys who didn't show up? If no one is even showing up was there recently a storm and everyone is super buried in work that asap stuff that could hurt home or property?

Just some things to think about. I know that I have a $200 minimum charge. We'll obviously vary from that when we can justify it.

I know I wouldn't want someone saying I'm a rip off artist when they can also say they don't understand much about what I do.

Just a few things to consider. Again, my intentions are absolutely not to be rude. If it even remotely came across like that, my most sincere apologies.
 
Yep, there are a lot of hidden expenses. Time in bidding and scheduling is huge. Our minimum is $180 and it doesn't feel like much sometimes.
 
Start small, maybe get some work from a tree service that doesn't want to be bothered with little jobs. Get training as stated. Buy equipment as you go along and can afford it. I've always told people that ask me about starting a business to think about where are you going to be 5 years from now if you don't start a business or start one and fail. Same place you are now I'd say. Not much to lose if you don't stick your neck out to far.
 
Yep... Different strokes.

My brother learned a handful of good tricks there although he was a muni employee at the time and went for free. I think it was several thousand for all three courses. I've been lucky to have been paid to learn while working. For me formal training is a supplement to hands on field experience.
 
A week ago we for some reason where cranking big jobs out quick. Did a $2000 oak that was nasty enough the line clearance guys wouldn't mess with it, and the homeowner couldn't get anyone else to even give them a bid. With one guy with me we did it in 3 or 4 hours. Homeowner happy, power company happy=all good right? Then comes the "that went fast are you going to bill us for less?" Way I figure is if it took 2 days nobody was going to be remotely considering paying me more money right? I figured a day. Did it in half as much time. Win some ya lose some.

Let's not forget that I had been out on that property 3 or 4 times in as many days. I also sat at the jobsiter for an hour that morning waiting for the lineman to get their shit out of the way.


I told someone the following day when we showed up and they asked if I'd bill for less if it went well... "how bout if it's harder than I thought and takes longer you can pay me double of my bid. If it goes quick I'll bill ya for half. Deal?" No takers...

Lots of variables....
 
And so the story goes...

A price was agreed on to accomplish a task, a fixed price. No time agreement. 1/2 a day or 4 days, cost is fixed.

That being said we do discount the work from time to time when we really knock one out of the park, it's rare though.
 
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  • #16
Ian, I completely understand and I wasn't trying to sound like I'm trying to pint everyone as a rip off artist. The guy that did my ash charged me $350 to put it on the ground. MB said that sounded like a rip off. I agree, but I don't have the skill set to do it, so I paid someone that did, and had insurance in case they didn't.

I also understand that companies have minimums. For a big company it may not be worth sending a crew to get a 20' limb for less than $200. I could have stopped on the way home, cut it up and loaded it, and been on my way for less than that. I wouldn't have the same expenses as you. I wouldn't have to recover as much cost. I wouldn't need the same minimum. I am looking at insurance just for my peace of mind. I doubt it'll cost me what it would cost a big company with equipment and employees. I won't need to charge as much to recover the cost either. If your minimum is $200, I assume that the work isn't worth doing to you for less than $200. It WOULD be for me.

I cut two trees up that fell in a friends yard after the last storm we had. I didn't charge him for it, I just helped him out. Apparently my best marketing tool is a Husqvarna, because I had three people ask if I could cut trees up for them. If I'd have had the time, I could've made a few dollars, but I didn't have the time, and I don't have the insurance. The places they called couldn't come out for a few weeks to even look at them.

I don't just jump into things, that's why I'm here. I'm trying to get as much info as I can. I appreciate the critisism and advice. I understand that there is a ton of knowledge here.
 
For sure man. I get where you're coming from. I really wasn't trying to take a shot at ya by any means. I have seen your posts in the past and I applaud you for trying to do things right. There's a lot to learn from all these guys around here.
 
Training is a good idea. Insurance is a must. Learn about the trees in your area. Do lot's of climbing. Get skilled with a chainsaw through long practice. Those last three will eventually overlap into paid tree work.

It's hard to tell someone on the internet without any experience to do something super dangerous. We generally don't encourage it.

I get to do some tree work on the clock, and I do some on the weekends for bids, but I rec climb all the time. Probably four or five times a week I'll puzzle out a way to the top of a big tree. I just enjoy the hell out of it.

Be safe, get training, enjoy.
 
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  • #20
Levi, I work for a major telephone company. I'm an outside repairman. Probably half of my work is either off of a ladder, out of a bucket, or off of gaffs. I've got twenty years experience doing this kind of work. I've cut firewood for close to thirty years. Generally trees that won't hit anything but other trees if they don't go where I want them. I am more proficient with a saw than the average homeowner, but I will admit that I haven't done the complex work that you guys do. That's the reason I'm not looking at big jobs. I'm looking for the stuff that's apparently not profitable for the big outfits. I'm also not looking to have the IRS asking me how I made money but didn't pay taxes. That was the main reason I wanted to start a small business. I like my house, and I'd like to keep it.
 
Sounds like you have a good platform to start with, slow and low is the way.
 
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  • #22
Grendel, I enjoy problem solving. I love being able to see a solution to a problem. It's all physics. I love being able to look at a tree, estimate how it's weighted, how it's leaning, and figure out how to cut it so that it goes where I want it. Love it. I'll throw a rope in it though to make sure it goes where I want it.

I couldn't believe the guy cut my ash down without tying it off at least. He cut his notch, started his back cut, pounded two wedges in and let it rip. Two minutes. It took him longer to fuel and oil his Stihl.
 
So, you've experience with working at a bit of height and can operate a chainsaw.

Both of those are plusses!
 
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  • #24
I've said before, I'm fine with a certain amount of height. 99% of my work is at 18 to 22'. That's where my cables are. In a tree, I'm very cautious, especially when I get above my normal work height. This is one reason I won't be doing anything very high in a tree if at all. I like cutting trees. I like running saws. I like the problem solving. I don't like a lot of height. That alone will keep me on the ground as much as possible. I like climbing for fun because I go where I WANT to in the tree. If I'm climbing to work, I would have to climb where the TREE WANTS ME TO GO. I'm not in control in that situation.
 
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