Your approach to the bidding process...

I know basically what can be done in a day and bid it that way.
I also add for the previously mentioned PITA dealings and such.
The higher the risk, the higher the bid.
If I can damage it, and it is going to cost up to 1500.00 to fix it, I will add the fix it price to the bid. No sense in running my insurance up over little crap. I have a drop and walk I may have to fix a fence. Advised the HO the fence could easily be fubar due to the crispy dead leaning nature of the tree. Fortunately, it is a wooden fence and we have mills. There ya go.. Still, she is prepaying for fence repair. Just sayin.
Clean up is always my weak suit. There always seems to be more crap than I figure. Add a percentage for that and profit.
Don't be afraid to not get the bid.

That's about the bones of it.
Work out how long it'll take, I work in blocks of a day, or rarely half a day, plus I have a stock of €100 jobs that I keep in the book for short days.
Basic rate for a day plus bump it up for various factors i.e. Danger, clear up, hateful clients, got a lot of work on, not got a lot of work on.
I've never worked out my fixed costs, I just put the prices up until I lose work then calm it down a bit.
Sounds cavalier but as a one gang company it sort of works.

I think of the potential damages the way an insurance company does. If it's a potential $500 repair, I'll add a percentage of that to the quote. Maybe 10%? If the crew makes it through without breaking it, that $50 is my bonus that we made it. If something does break, I tap into the pool of all the previous $50 "premiums" to cover the cost of this one repair.


love
nick

Ive noticed I'm pretty bad at giving a "ballpark figure" for anything worth over $3k, I need to just shut up until I've sat down and crunched the numbers accurately. I'll go home after viewing a string of jobs, pull out a pad to note onsite costs and then add appropriate margins based on what the previous gents have mentioned in terms of risk, difficulty, hazard level etc before emailing the client a quote document with logo etc and insurance certificates. This works well for me because I can concentrate without distraction and the quote document looks a million times better than my handwriting.

candoarms said:

I think we all end up making a few mistakes along the way. It's not just the guys in the tree business who do this. I work part-time helping the local cabinet maker during the winter months. He bids his kitchen projects and often comes away saying that he should have bid the project differently.

Tree work is something I would rather do at my own pace. I never bid a job on an hourly rate basis, because I'd feel pressured and it would no longer be as enjoyable to me.

I meet with the customer, take a bunch of pictures, write down a number of things, then go home and look at the pictures on the computer and figure out a rigging plan. I then look at the work involved as far as climbing and cutting would go, then figure in the time that would be spent removing the mess from the yard. Fences and narrow openings get figured in, as do inclines and slopes. Sensitive landscaping, gardens, buildings, other trees, obstacles of all sorts......all of these are considered. If the pictures show a lot of other work that could be done in the yard, I prepare myself for a few "while you're heres", and make that part of the bid.

My customers always get something done for free. I make it a point to do that on every job.

After all is said and done, I add about 300 dollars for wear and tear on my equipment, then make another visit with the customer and explain the process. I then cough up the bid and see what happens. Usually I get the go-ahead on the spot. Once in a while I'll get a customer who wants to think about it for a while. This is when I offer them a discount, provided they're willing to wait until I'm in town doing another job. This helps a whole lot to secure a job that I may have otherwise lost.

Hope this helps.

Joel

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Joel, great post. I'm not a pro arb, but if I were, I would want to work just like you do. This line of yours in particular hits home with me. "Tree work is something I would rather do at my own pace. I never bid a job on an hourly rate basis, because I'd feel pressured and it would no longer be as enjoyable to me."

So the game, if I'm reading you right, is to just try to give adequate consideration to all of the variables involved in doing a job, such that you feel that you are getting a fair price for all of your time and trouble. You have a feel for how long the work will take, doing the job at a pace that feels comfortable to you. Built into this esimate is the slack time necessary to be able to slow down, step back and reassess the situation if something seems a little dicey.

I thank you for your post.

Tim

I always bid on an hourly basis, but I'm also the only one who knows that.

I try to go with a half day / full day price setup, then add if I need a second truck, subtract if chips don't need to be hauled, etc. A landscaper I work with sometimes said his dad (who is their designer, runs the show) still screws up bids, and they've been a successful business for like 10 years now. It makes me feel a bit better about screwing up half of my bids.

Can you guys expand on the half-day/ full-day pricing? For round numbers, would you then have jobs fall into $500 or $1000 catagories? Seems like particularly with removal work, $200 can make or break. $100, or $50 in some cases.

Your right Sean, if its a competitive market ie most suburban/urban areas then I believe that half day/full day bidding is basically handing work over to the competition, it would work in a perfect world or possibly for loyal existing clients. Ive people email pictures of hedges and light trimming work and I will suggest they book us for the half day.

I'm trying to nail down the climbing rates to half/full days. Trying to make things easier when pricing out the job (I hope). Job quotes here are all over the board. 95% of the time I don't do any clean up.

Stump grinding has been in the $100/half hour range. Seems to be working as well as a pricing strategy for me. I'll talk to the HO and say $100 to take 2 stumps out, or $200 for that big stump and exposed roots, etc etc. haven't been asked to do any clean up.

Soooo many variables!

What equipment do we need: big chipper, small chipper, no chipper, big truck, small truck, no truck (ya I do work out of my Nissan Versa sometimes!), mini, tracked lift, crane?

Can we cut and stack the brush and have the other crew chip at the end of the day? How far from a dump site? Do we have other jobs coming up in this area?

Who am I potentially bidding against? What ressources do they have?

How busy am I? Do I need the work?

Who can I assign to this job? Is my best pruner, removal guy, ground guy available in that timeframe? Does the job need someone who can problem-solve, or is it straightforward enough for any employee?

What other potential work can come out of this contract? Is that interesting?

Mostly, I don't care what equipment I need for the job, just because I don't take it to the job doesn't mean I don't have to pay that payment.

True, but it can be out making more money elsewhere.

That's when you start making money

I try to imagine the job and figure out if I can do it in a day, if it feels like a 1 day job with me, groundie, and chipper - 1200. If its less than a day, I use the half day to try to get a better idea of how long it will really take. I do still forget to account for dumping chips and stuff after I leave the job, its a work in progress. I don't have "hard stops" at 600 and 1200, but they are where I start figuring from. Many jobs do come down to those numbers, but if it seems a little too far low or high I do give bids in between. I'll find out next week if I'm high/low, I put in a bid yesterday for a job that's getting 2 more bids over the weekend (I hope I get it, looks like a fun speedline job, but either way I hope to see where I am on pricing). I did an estimate today and HO was considering adding this or that or the other tree over there so I gave him my day rate and we can see how far we get, he was happy with that, and he'll be on hand to help.

My half day figuring is quite flexible as I don't have to fill my schedule, keep employees busy, etc. If I land a half day job and I'm headed home around lunchtime I'm happy, I don't book 2 half days on 1 day. That is a luxury I have that I'm pretty sure most do not.

Jobs that don't require the chipper I try to figure how much is climbing and what I can do from the ground. I generally figure $100 per hour if its mostly aerial, a little less if mostly ground (I'm doing some spring cleaning for a lonely old lady for 50/hour with a helper, she's my charity case). I'm still trying to figure out what those rates should be. On a recent trimming job it ended up working out to about 80/hr, took longer than I anticipated. 1 more notch on my learning curve, but I am also not that fast moving around the canopy, so I think the price was close for the job.

I like to look at the tree and the surroundings a lot, take some pics, and some notes, then go home and think it over a bit. Then I throw a number on it, see how it sits with me, call it in and move on. I used to get worked up about pricing, but I realized that I have to start somewhere and I'm not going to win them all, so throw a number at it and go. Sometimes the HO clearly wants to know a number on the spot, that still makes me quite nervous and they usually get the day or half day rate.

woodslinger said:

Sometimes the HO clearly wants to know a number on the spot

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They only want a number then and there because they are impatient - its not like they're ready to pull the trigger or anything. How longs the tree been there?

I nearly always give a price on the spot, assuming it's a simple job to work out.
More likely to say yes when you're in front of them.
Go back in the house, write out the spec and price in a triplicate book, rip out the quote, pass it to them, then shut up.
Watch for the look between the husband and wife, see who's in charge.

Ive had a few bids accepted on the spot recently but on the whole it happens somewhat rarely, I could see how this would vary place to place...

Could be, it's also motivated by my laziness, not wanting to type up written quotes.

In my depressed area, sometimes HO's are anxious to know right there and then, an example, the FIL is down from way up north and is paying for the job, he's leaving tomorrow.

Fair enough, I would get them a price in time but If I needed to go home and think on it then so be it. Its like "Oh, you mean you cant do it tomorrow??? but we have the fencer/builder starting on tuesday and he wont be happy about being delayed". Apart from emergency work any urgent tree work is generally the result of a disorganised client.

What about building sites? I sometimes have clients that decide they are going to book tree work and minor demolition/building works on the same day, it generally works out ok but there is always a shortage of space and extra consumption of time. The site never resembles what was initially inspected, does anyone stipulate terms for this when it happens?

I'm still trying to get a handle on pricing, so I prefer to take notes and photos, then go home and think it over a few times. I'm sure with more experience that process will be easier and quicker. I sure hope so anyway!

I avoid giving prices on the spot because I'm too nice. I need to step away from the situation, remind myself that I'm running a business, and not let myself worry about making sure I get EVERY job.

I bid stronger this way.


love
nick

I try to figure out, as closely as possible, time and expenses. . . . then double it. Always try to factor in time for "extra" or "freebie" stuff. I'm going to do it anyway, so I might as well put it in there. Hate working rushed or under the gun, or having to cut corners. Also, giving a range of low-to-high works well for me.

Good call. I always try to find something to put on the bid for free. Obviously they're paying for it- but I've found by putting a small $25 item for free, we can stop them from asking for the ol' "while you're here can you also clean this up" by telling them that we already gave them something for free so we're gonna have to charge for anything else.


love
nick