ash in real trouble?

Hi, guys:

Hope you can steer me the right way on this one...

Pretty sure this tree in my yard (center of frame) has EAB.



The branches marked in red below are dead or dying.

Numbers 1, 2, and 4 (L to R) are stone dead--no leaves, peeling bark. While the center right branch (#3) has some leaves at the very end, the growth has that "sickly" thin look that EAB trees get.



What would you do in this situation?

The deadwood is (or will be) a hazard. Climbing to prune it certainly makes the yard safer. Does it give the tree any better chance of surviving?

The foliage at the top of the leader--and the main right fork (co-dominant stem?) seems pretty healthy, but these main parts of the tree have a bunch of stubs on the way up (dead limbs in foreground):



I guess I'm wondering if the tree can focus its energies in the canopy, which looks healthy and is getting good sun, will it survive longer in its battle vs. the bugs? Or is this a "deck chairs on the Titanic" situation

It's done for in my opinion. Treating for ash borer in my area has not been a priority to people though. I'm not to up on how soon it's gotta be caught.

Thanks, guys.

Peter, after poking around that link, these PDFs are helpful:

Managing Emerald Ash Borer: Decision Guide
My Ash Tree is Dead...Now What Do I Do?

My tree looks more like the unhealthy pictures than the healthy one. For now, I think I'll deadwood it for safety's sake before hiring somebody for the inevitable takedown...

Spellfeller said:

....Pretty sure this tree in my yard (center of frame) has EAB...

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There are lots of things that will cause limbs to die back like your pictures show. Before throwing in the towel positively verify that it is eab that is the culprit.

DMc said:

Before throwing in the towel positively verify that it is eab that is the culprit.

Click to expand...

Roger! Wiil do.

I'll clean out the deadwood and then keep an eye on the overall health of the tree. If it continues to decline, I'll get a pro to take a look.

Pretty sure that I see the "D" shaped exit wounds at the base, though.

DMc said:

There are lots of things that will cause limbs to die back like your pictures show.

Click to expand...

To your point, there is a lot of "competition" in my yard. Limbs in the understory do not get a lot of light. I think there is a "race to the top" going on!

(Though, OTOH, the young maple to its left is doing pretty well!)

What is the decline pattern for EAB? Top down? Bottom up? The top of the tree is harder to supply with a compromised vascular system. The top also gets more sun, so its more advantageous to shut off shaded limbs for ones in full sun.

Confirm, EAB presence or absence. Consider preservation measures, pronto, if it is not infested.

I don't know anything much, since we don't have it here, by the way.

If your tree is in Indianapolis then most likely it already has eab for a year or two.

I look at the tree house daily, but not sure I've ever posted. Just a "lurker" I guess...

With that said, here's my thoughts...

Ash are pretty good at utilizing something I refer to as compensatory mechanism (Not sure if/where I read that term or what, but surely I didn't just come up with it). If the lower branches aren't contributing back to the tree in a photosynthetic capacity, then the tree will basically stop pushing resources to these branches. Sort of a sacrificial management kinda deal.

I've also seen them go dormant real early in drought conditions, then come back in relatively good shape the following year.

We also have a lot of customers who think they have EAB because they see boring activity. Lots of the time, if you see bore holes in included bark, it may very well be something other than the eab.

You could also be seeing premature leaf drop from any other number of other issues. Anthracnose can cause this.

I hope that all makes sense, and I'm not out of line by chiming in on a thread and acting like I have an idea of what I'm talking about when this is my first post.

Well, I'm not even close to knowing what to advise, other than, it's your tree, then it gives you an excuse to do some climbs, dead wood for sure, perhaps someone will chime in with treatment advice, perfect opportunity to get some work climbing under your belt...err...saddle.

My GF has a maple with a split between two codoms, she gets yippin' and yappin'bout whatever, perfect time to do a climb to inspect, don't want the tree to split and fall on your house, right?

Welcome out into the daylight Ian...

ianwhite said:

I hope...I'm not out of line ...

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Not out of line at all, Ian! My thanks to you--and everybody else who's replied. Super helpful as always!

Welcome, Ian...great first post. You are not out of line at all. You have already posited more info about the EAB situation than I can even begin to offer. Keep proffering as you can or have time to.

Thanks guys! The warm welcome is greatly appreciated. I think that's what I like about this place so much. I'm going to start chiming in a bit more here and there when I have time. Time's the limiting factor for sure.

Anyhow, thank you all for being so hospitable!

Isn't there a welcome thread? Is that were I should kinda give a brief, and likely a relatively uninteresting, synopsis of who I am and what I do? I feel like I know a lot of you guys pretty well.

For now... got the boy down for a nap and the wife is chillin in the pool. So, out the door for a quick eab injection, a paclobutrazol treatment, and a couple bids. Hopefully back home in time for some unfortunately necessary papaerwork and dinner with the fam!

Again, thanks for the welcome and hope everyone's having a great Sunday.

https://www.masterblasterhome.com/s...-New-Members-quot-thread!&p=734576#post734576

Welcome Ian.

The NEW POSTS link, two 'lines' under the TREE HOUSE name, top left, is very useful.

Welcome to the TreeHouse, Ian!

Spellfeller said:

Thanks, guys.

Peter, after poking around that link, these PDFs are helpful:

Managing Emerald Ash Borer: Decision Guide
My Ash Tree is Dead...Now What Do I Do?

My tree looks more like the unhealthy pictures than the healthy one. For now, I think I'll deadwood it for safety's sake before hiring somebody for the inevitable takedown...

Click to expand...

Hey, Spellfeller! Just wondering why you don't consider doing the takedown yourself, if you end up deeming it to be necessary. Is it a current lack of rigging gear? Or are you just not sure how to do it just yet? If it is the latter, here is a link to a portion of a website that belongs to the guy most responsible for the fact that I climb at all today.

http://www.climbingarborist.com/rigging.html

This section contains some of the most used techniques needed to accomplish the task. Go smaller with the pieces you choose to take out of the tree until you feel comfortable, would be my suggestion. This would be such a golden opportunity to advance your skill set, I'd hate to see you give it up to someone else. I can tell by the thoughtfulness of all of your posts that you are prudent and conservative enough to keep yourself safe. You might even have room to just fell it from the ground, without ever even having to climb it, for all I know.

I wish you luck, whatever you decide. I just thought that because "feller" is part of your screen name, you might want to take a "whack" at it. I know, I know, puns are the lowest form of comedy. Just sue me, why don'tcha.

(Apologies for any spelling errors, in advance.)

Tim

ianwhite said:

I look at the tree house daily, but not sure I've ever posted. Just a "lurker" I guess...

With that said, here's my thoughts...

Ash are pretty good at utilizing something I refer to as compensatory mechanism (Not sure if/where I read that term or what, but surely I didn't just come up with it). If the lower branches aren't contributing back to the tree in a photosynthetic capacity, then the tree will basically stop pushing resources to these branches. Sort of a sacrificial management kinda deal.

I've also seen them go dormant real early in drought conditions, then come back in relatively good shape the following year.

We also have a lot of customers who think they have EAB because they see boring activity. Lots of the time, if you see bore holes in included bark, it may very well be something other than the eab.

You could also be seeing premature leaf drop from any other number of other issues. Anthracnose can cause this.

I hope that all makes sense, and I'm not out of line by chiming in on a thread and acting like I have an idea of what I'm talking about when this is my first post.

Click to expand...

Ian, welcome to the Tree House forum! Glad to have you here, for sure, in spite of the fact that I feel like you've been "holding out" on me!



I can tell that you have so much knowledge to contribute to this forum it will make my head spin, so welcome aboard, and thanks for posting. I have much to learn from one such as you.

Tim

Thanks Tim! Awful nice of ya to say that. I hope that I can make a beneficial contribution here and there. With that said, I've got way more to learn from you guys than what I can offer. That's for sure.

Also wanted to say that I slightly misspoke in the post regarding the compensatory mechanism deal. I said "lower branches". I meant to say interior branches. I'm sure you guys have all seen an ash with the ton of little 1/4"-1" dead suckers on the inside of what could be considered a healthy ash. That's what I was referring to. If anybody thinks that's a bit off, I'm all ears. That's just simply how I've always looked at it.

Thanks again to everyone for having me.

After reviewing the pics again, I'd say at the very least, it's a great opportunity to hop up in the tree to perform an inspection and remove some of the deadwood. It looks like you're already starting to see some compartmentalization with some of the stubs. Good chance to get a 1st hand view of how trees want to/should be pruned.

If you want treatment options info, feel free to mention that and I'll chime in. We've been successfully providing those services for quite a while.

....seems here in Vermont with White Ash comprising 11% of the forest we are awaiting the worst. Lot's of Purple traps around but speaking as a local we just don't see it yet. EAB has been confirmed in all directions so I suppose it's just matter of time...Sad.

Tim_B. said:

Hey, Spellfeller! Just wondering why you don't consider doing the takedown yourself...

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Thanks for the vote of confidence, Tim! I'm going to see how the deadwooding goes and make a decision from there. I'll have to rig some of the larger branches, given that there are a few young trees/bushes underneath. If I don't make a complete bollocks of that, I may try to go further. Thing is, all of the pruning will be lightweight stuff, which I can rig with what I have on hand, belayed with a Munter on a biner or similar. Blocking down the trunk would involve Portawrap, rope, block/X-ring level expenditures, but at least that stuff is a one-time expense...

As for the screen name, "Spell" is the name of the road in NC that runs up to my wife's family's cabin. "Feller" because I'm okay on the ground with a saw.

In other words, I feel pretty confident dropping a whole tree where I want it; taking it down piece by piece...not so much!

ianwhite said:

If you want treatment options info, feel free to mention that and I'll chime in.

Click to expand...

Ian, judging from the pictures (which admittedly are not great), do you believe the tree can be saved?

Spellfeller said:

Ian, judging from the pictures (which admittedly are not great), do you believe the tree can be saved?

Click to expand...

Honestly can't say for sure without an in person inspection. Even then, I don't ever give 100% guarantees to our customers. This is obviously not a comparable situation, just trying to be honest... With that said, it's a pretty guaranteed statement that it will not be a viable long term specimen if it is not treated for EAB. Some of the chemical reps will say that trees are a viable candidate for treatment if the tree shows less than 25% canopy decline. I don't necessarily agree with those percentages.

The thing that you have to consider is that eab causes significant disruption to the vascular system of the specimen. The way we treat for eab is via systemic insecticide injections. (after much thorough consideration we have determined this to be the best option, at least for our company). Assuming that you have adequate transpirational pull (many factors involved) you ideally achieve relatively even dispersal of the insecticide throughout your patient (tree) assuming the application is done correctly. Therefore, if the vascular system of the tree is compromised, adequate transpirational pull is difficult to achieve. Relatively uniform vascular distribution is evenly, if not more so, difficult to achieve with a compromised vascular system.

If you wanna put water in your pool, a hose is a good option. But, if the hose is screwed up, not all the water will get to the pool. Maybe none of it depending upon the severity of the damage. Same deal with a tree in my opinion. (I think anyway.) That's honestly the first time I've thought of it like that....

There are a lot of other considerations as well. To me.... it all comes down to a cost benefit analysis when discussing tree work, or potential tree work.

Is the tree rather structurally sound? Does it have issues with codominant junctions? A lot of ash do. Can those codom junctions and the related included bark issues be reasonably managed via structural support systems? If so, what is the cost? No point in making sure that your tree won't get eab if it's gonna break in the next couple years in a storm. What is the cost of the treatment? How far along has the eab issue potentially progressed? Is eab close to you? ( it is ) What would the cost of removal be? Can the tree be accessed via aerial lift? If not, can it be flopped? If not, what would the cost be for a crane removal? (we aren't putting climbers in eab trees anymore, for whatever that's worth...(well not rigging em out anyway)

Are there other trees in the area that would benefit from the removal of that particular ash tree? If so, sometimes it may be worth considering removal of that particular tree as somewhat of a sacrificial management kind of decision...


Again, cost vs. benefit in my opinion is the best way to make a decision that you can stand behind.

Also, it's getting rather late in the year to expect good uptake for some eab treatment options. Might get uptake, but might be very VERY slow. Some systems work better than others this time of year. If someone makes an attempt to get the tree injected, and it doesn't pull the chemical, have you just unnecessarily drilled in (put wounds) into a tree for no benefit?


SOOOOO...... I know that I didn't even remotely answer your question. Sorry! But, that's a brief rundown of how I look at eab treatments. You are obviously intelligent. So, hopefully some of the concepts I mentioned will help you to make the decision.

I'm couple hours away from Indy, and always have intentions of taking my son to the zoo over there, or swinging by treestuff. I'd be happy to swing by for a whopping zero dollar consult/look see, if I ever actually make it over there.

Hope that at least a bit of that info helps you a bit. If not, sorry for totally wasting your time!