two man crews

McGuarantee

TreeHouser
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
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130
Location
Nashville, TN
Hey there everybody. What are your thoughts on two man crews? I do residential tree work and we primarily run 2 man crews. It feels ridiculous on so many days not to have a third man. On the rare occasion we have 3 men the days seem to be so smooth and productive. Maybe it's a morale thing? Seems like one man on the ground can be really overloaded on removals especially. Leaving lots of down time for the climber. Today I was putting in a long cable (20 ft about) that was difficult to reach each side of. Great, we'll each do one side, right? But then there's getting the drill to each other...the co-worker drops the drill bit, silly things happen, someone has to be on the ground to cut the cable...etc. Or your left with having to have creative solutions for every little thing just to make up for your lacking of ground supports. Just rambling now.

The company I work for charges 100$ per hour per man (that's the goal) no matter the skill level of the employee. This is why 3 men can be a challenge because $300 an hour adds up quickly. Seems like a poor plan, though I've never tried to run a company.

Thoughts, feelings, comments, experiences?
 
3 is definitely smoother on removals: climber, ropeman, brushman

The company I work for charges $200 per hour for a two man crew, but only $250 for three guys because it goes that much faster. Not every job requires a three man crew, but when you need it, you NEED it.
 
I think two man crews have their place for small jobs. But for larger jobs, I find it to be incredibly more efficient to have the proper amount of people. I think three should expect the minimum for most work. The more people you have the more flexibility you have, and greater flexibility will open up so many doors for what you can do.

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2 man crew works fine but 3 man kills it much faster by far.

I worked with Bixler last week taking out 6 black oaks with a 6 man crew...me and Bix going from oak to oak. roping and bombing branches all over, would make you dizzy lol

4 on ground was sweet, getting it chipped/cleaned up...gave Bix and me time to go do a Maple removal as well, all stayed on ground

this is how you can make some good money knocking out a lot of jobs fast...
 
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I worked with Bixler last week taking out 6 black oaks with a 6 man crew...me and Bix going from oak to oak. roping and bombing branches all over, would make you dizzy lol


That's how I feel when I work with 3 guys. And what bugs me is the limiting reason for not having another guy is the amount of money on the job. But why in the world do you have to charge $100 bucks for a brush manager (not the reliable ground guy) when he makes in the ballpark of 10-12 bucks. Lots of business decisions I will never grasp, maybe!
 
It's not just the wage. Workmans comp, unemployment insurance, payroll tax, payroll costs. Add training, uniforms, PPE.

Are they guaranteeing that employee year round work in a possible seasonal market? How would you pay wages for non-billable hours?
 
The majority of my work is done with two men, and on small jobs it works out fine. On mid-sized jobs I have to wait on my ground guy, but as hot as it is right now it's not so bad taking a little break every few minutes. On bigger jobs we hire extras and it makes a world of difference. Charging the customer $100 an hour for a guy that makes $100 a day is a little overboard to me too, especially for temp labor. Full time, different story.
 
I do most of my work with two, but am well aware when a job is going to need three, so I bid it appropriately and get an extra person for the job.
On a lot of stuff I do a third person would be standing around a lot, whereas with two my groundie is steadily busy.

We don't chip, only stack for the estate to remove, or on one-off jobs, make a few runs with the truck to the tip.
 
I do a lot with a two man crew. You just need to be realistic in what you take on for a day. It can be frustrating quite often but it isn't my company to run. When I bid work for myself, I make note of the number of people and any extra equipment that might be needed. I'll also say that with the right two man crew having the right equipment, a lot of work can be done.
 
Up until this year I ran a 2 man crew. We did big jobs mainly and rocked them. Wheel loader with Grapple and a Wraptor and we can out perform a 4 man crew! No BS

Now though I roll with a crane so have upped the volume so need more guys to make more money. Don't know yet if we will net more money but sure is fun !!
 
I work with a 1-4 man crew, depending on the job. If there's a climber, it's usually a 3 man job and normally a 2 man if the lift cuts out the climbing. At some point there will be a 3 man job with the lift, for someone to haul material while we're working, especially if there's a lot of rigging involved.


Almost all of our hand work is cut out aside from raking and rigging/cutting the tree. Tomorrow I'm doing a $2800 job solo with the lift, excavator, dump trailer, and possibly a chipper I need to film working. 2 removals, trim a tree off the house, and get a broken limb out of another tree that's hanging on the neighbor's property. I think almost everything will be cut and tossed from the tree. My former usual helper moved on to greener pastures (pun intended, he's cutting grass on the air base now :lol:) and my new helper is spending time with his nephew from out of town most likely. Friday is another solo day of roughly equal proportions, although there's stump grinding on that job which my former helper still does after work.

One huge help for us/me is the excavator which is fantastic for loading the dump trailer and processing debris with the grapple saw. The grapple saw's rotation also makes it much easier to feed the chipper as well as work in tighter areas and with the truck being in a subprime location. I'm thinking in the future I'll get a quick connect to go between the grapple saw and the rotator so I can run a 50-60" regular grapple for handling larger logs and piles of brush more easily.

The last time we ran a 3+ member crew was last year after the tornado. In the 6 days after the storm, we worked 28 man/days in the 6 days following the storm (4.6 man crew for 6 days). We grossed $58k and change in those 6 days, one day was with a crane (day 6, crane billed for 17 hours that day).


ETA: Much like Paul is saying, equipment sure makes a difference in what you can get done! When we run a 4 man crew, one person is running to the dump, one is helping Scott (climber) and I'm running the equipment, pinch hitting as required, and answering the phones.
 
Wraptor and a material handling machine with a grapple help a lot.

Top-side friction devices/ NC, especially if the climber can cut/ catch/ lower the work, helps a ton. I sometimes have a groundie catch things, then pass the rope to me. Often I cut, catch, lower myself.

If you are trying to land big pieces in a small space, the above is especially true. That's where you sometimes need to substitute a groundie.

A climber lowering small pieces in to a small space, or large pieces into a large space can use one groundie to do a lot, especially with a tagline to help manipulate by hand or machine.


Certainly, there is room for 3, 4, 5, 6+ person crews.

Mostly, machines are never hung over, are much easier to fix or replace when broken, know their jobs exactly and execute them exactly (do whatever the operator tells them to do, including flipping over sometimes!), have no worker's comp, can be used for personal use at minimal expense, not that I ever would.
 
One thing I picked up from Scott is taking wraps in the tree to lower limbs to a single groundy. Another trick is having the ropes roughly as long as the tree is tall so when you lower a piece to the ground you don't have a huge tail getting tangled on the ground. You can also unwrap the now short end and be setting up for the next piece while the ground is untying the last piece. My most used length is ~80', which corresponds quite well with my ~72' lift.
 
One of my tree work associations is a two man crew, me and him. It works out ok, but like when both of us need to be involved with one particular task, like cutting and pulling, everything else stops, particularly cleanup. I can easily see that on some jobs, having a third person would make things go more efficiently.
 
One thing I picked up from Scott is taking wraps in the tree to lower limbs to a single groundy. Another trick is having the ropes roughly as long as the tree is tall so when you lower a piece to the ground you don't have a huge tail getting tangled on the ground. You can also unwrap the now short end and be setting up for the next piece while the ground is untying the last piece. My most used length is ~80', which corresponds quite well with my ~72' lift.

Lumber jacks got the ideal
 
I dunno, it's pretty warm today! I'm thinking I'll get the trees down today with the heat index already at 98*. Thinking I'll get the trees down today and clean them up in the AC tomorrow!
 
We have done a lot with a two man crew for quite a time. We are now going to try and grow some.
Scheduling and charging accordingly is the key. Two guys get to keep more of the money, but the works takes a bit longer on the larger jobs. Organise your day. DO NOT bury your ground man. Smooth and keep it moving.
Material handling is always the choke point. Wheeled loader or mini helps a great deal.
Chipper as well. Buy for what you do and how you are going to pull it. Iron makes a big difference and is more affordable than two legged material handlers.
Wraptor.. Helps the long day when you need not hump it up the tree.
Most of this has been said.
Carl knows his stuff.
 
Ive found that with 2 guys we are still cleaning up when in all truth we should already be setting up at the next gig and then end up a doing a looong day. Its more to do with inaccurate estimating than anything else- two guys can do plenty but it may sometimes take a while.
 
Two man company here. We stay pretty efficient on most of our jobs. There are definitely removals when the climber is waiting around a lot but there's also times when the ground guy is standing around too.

I used to work at a place where we had up to 10 men available but 3 man crews were the norm. Some days we would schedule 2 man crews and those days were always more profitable for the business. The problem is that if you have two guys waiting for the climber to set the rigging up or move around, then you have twice the wasted time on the ground. I believe most jobs can be completed in less man hours with a two man crew versus a 3 or more man crew.

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depends on the 2nd man some yrs the 2nd is awesome but other yrs a 3rd is better. I prefer a 3 so when I get out of the tree there is less to do and we go home early or get more done and all of us less tired. 3 on an average removal usually means I have to come down to clear things up or I have to wait in the tree but with a fourth and a fifth usaually means I can let er fly and get home.
Can't expect crew to work as hard or as fast as you is the reality. But then again some days and some trees the work we get done in day used to take two and having a crew that can match that is challenging.
 
I finished my solo job today. It took about 13-14 hours including mob in and out for $2800 in production. The lift was a huge help on this job, it would have been a long day for a climber in this heat. I could have done the job in a day I figure if I would have had a helper and felt like it. There was a lot of cutting and tossing on this job.
 
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