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Frans
11-30-2007, 09:19 PM
Here is what my sister is fighting:
The American Health Care system. She is a nurse and union rep.

It is a long read, but speaks plainly about what we, as Arborists and self employed Americans, can expect from our health care system.

Vote! Is about all I can say.


The article below speaks for itself. The passion I feel is why I do what I do: To become the spoke of the wheel of change for medical care and access for all, where the only burden is on the individual to care for themselves, their family, and ultimately the Earth.
Peace to you all,
Jonica
P.S. We put those stockings, otherwise know as TED hose, on just about every patient.

Last night RNs at CPMC joined St Luke’s, Alta Bates-Summit, Mills-Peninsula, Sutter Novato, Marin General, Sutter Delta, and Sutter Solano in voting to authorize a second Sutter-wide strike and REJECT CPMC’s contract offer. RNs at Cal voted yesterday to reject management's proposal by 3 to 1.

The Federal Mediator set up a negotiating session on Monday, 12/3, with CPMC in response to a request for help from CNA. We hope they will keep the meeting, agree to change their position and begin finally to compromise on significant issues, and respect the nurses’ vote.

Nato Green, Labor Representative
California Nurses Association
National Nurses Organizing Committee
2000 Franklin St., Oakland, CA 94612
Tel: (510) 273-2269 l Fax: (510) 663-5712
www.calnurses.org
www.singlepayer.com
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November 29, 2007




PAGE ONE




MAXED OUT
As Medical Costs Soar,
The Insured Face Huge Tab
Jim Dawson Hit Cap
After Hospital Padding;
The $1.2 Million Bill
By JOHN CARREYROU
November 29, 2007; Page A1
MERCED, Calif. -- One day in late July, Jim Dawson happily returned home. He had spent the previous five months in the hospital battling an infection that nearly killed him. The phone rang shortly after Mr. Dawson and his wife, Loretta, entered their house.

It was the hospital. California Pacific Medical Center was calling to remind the Dawsons that they owed it $1.2 million.



Jim Dawson survived a catastrophic illness only to face a $1.2 million medical bill.
Mr. Dawson, 61 years old, had health insurance through his employer, but had maxed out his plan's $1.5 million lifetime cap halfway through his long hospital stay. In addition to the bill from CPMC, Mr. Dawson owed tens of thousands of dollars more to scores of doctors who were involved in his care. Mr. Dawson and his wife's combined assets totaled a fraction of their medical debt.

"I had never thought in a million years that anything like that could ever happen," says Mrs. Dawson.

As spending on health care has climbed to almost $2 trillion a year, or 16% of the U.S. economy, the number of Americans burdened with massive medical bills has soared as well. According to a 2005 survey by the Commonwealth Fund, an estimated 34% of adults aged 19 to 64 face problems with medical bills or have accrued medical debt. A majority of those people -- 62% -- had health insurance, the survey found.

Million-dollar medical bills like Mr. Dawson's, while still unusual, are becoming more common as insurance policies once thought to provide catastrophic coverage prove inadequate when it comes to high-cost illnesses.

Part of the problem: Even as medical progress and new technologies raise health-care costs, health plans have been slow to raise their caps. Mr. Dawson's $1.5 million cap was relatively generous by today's standards. The Segal Company, an employee-benefits consulting firm, says the average health-plan cap among companies it advises is $1 million a person -- the same as it was in the 1970s, when the purchasing power of $1 million was the equivalent of nearly $6 million today.

MEDICAL LIABILITIES

• Million-Dollar Bills: As health-care spending soars, so has the number of Americans with huge health-care tabs.
• Funny Money: Many hospitals heavily pad their bills by marking up items and services.
• The Bottom Line: Hospitals say bill padding is their only defense against government and insurer cost cutting, but the practice can leave individuals with wildly inflated bills.
Another issue is the widespread practice of bill padding by hospitals and other health providers. While hospitals say bill padding is their only defense against the aggressive cost-reduction efforts of insurers and government programs, the end result is that individuals can, with little warning, be left stuck with wildly inflated medical bills.

For instance, CPMC charged Mr. Dawson $791 for stockings designed to improve blood circulation. The same pair can be purchased on the Internet for as little as $12.

Allan Pont, CPMC's chief medical officer, acknowledges that the charges on Mr. Dawson's bill are "Disneyland numbers" that health insurers and government programs like Medicare and Medicaid never pay. But he says they reflect the hospital's operating costs, such as paying for doctors, nurses and medical equipment, as well as markups to compensate for the fact that CPMC collects only a fraction of what it bills every year.

Mr. Dawson's health calamity, and the resulting $3 million in health-care bills it generated, was due to a staph infection, a bacterial skin infection that is usually easily cured if caught early. But Mr. Dawson's condition was missed by various doctors and spread throughout his body.

For 15 years, Mr. Dawson worked for oil refiner Valero Energy Corp. and its predecessor companies, selling gasoline products to gas stations across California. Big and burly -- and with a deadpan sense of humor -- Mr. Dawson spent much of his work life on the road.

In late 2005, Mr. Dawson noticed strange dry spots on his right arm. Over the course of the next nine months, they grew into big calluses and Mr. Dawson took to hiding them under bandages. He felt OK, but the calluses were unsightly.

In September 2006, Mr. Dawson went to see his primary-care physician, Patrick Golden, in Fresno, Calif. Dr. Golden referred him to a dermatologist, who gave Mr. Dawson an injection. The calluses disappeared within days.

But Mr. Dawson's health began to sharply deteriorate. In mid-November 2006, he was on a business trip in Victorville, Calif., when excruciating back pain woke him in the middle of the night. He checked out of his hotel in his pajamas and drove home to Merced, a small middle-class city 110 miles southeast of San Francisco.

THE COST OF CARE

• See a page1 from Mr. Dawson's $1.2 million CPMC bill, with explainers.
• Read the July 2 letter2 the Dawsons received from Health Care Legal Services.
• Read the October 5 donation solicitation3 the Dawsons received from CPMC's foundation.
After lying in bed for two days, Mr. Dawson didn't feel any better and couldn't move his right arm. Worried, Mrs. Dawson decided to take her husband to the emergency room at Emanuel Medical Center in Turlock, 30 minutes away. Mr. Dawson was hospitalized there, but his wife checked him out after three days because she says the hospital seemed unable to determine what was wrong and she felt he wasn't being properly cared for.

John Gilbert, a spokesman for Emanuel Medical Center, says Mr. Dawson was examined by an internist, who consulted with four other specialists. He says the hospital diagnosed Mr. Dawson with cellulitis of the hand, disintegrating back discs, chronic kidney disease, acute renal failure and gout, a form of arthritis characterized by sudden attacks of pain and tenderness in joints. No one realized it at the time, but all were likely consequences of the staph.

"We feel that he was provided good care," Mr. Gilbert says. Emanuel billed Valero's health plan $31,159.75 for the three-day stay. Using its bargaining leverage as a large plan, Valero's health plan negotiated the amount it paid down to $20,339.74.

Mr. Dawson returned to see Dr. Golden, who only diagnosed him with gout. Dr. Golden gave him painkillers for his back and an anti-inflammatory drug to reduce swelling in his arm. But Mr. Dawson continued to feel ill and lost his appetite. In just a few months, he went from 305 pounds to 223 pounds, his skin turned grayish and he continued to experience terrible back pain.

In February 2007, Mr. Dawson collapsed at a convention in Las Vegas. Mrs. Dawson and their 25-year-old son, Noel, drove 450 miles from Merced to pick him up. Mr. Dawson went back to see Dr. Golden, but he says Dr. Golden continued to maintain that his condition wasn't serious and told him to return for a checkup in 90 days. Reached at his office in Fresno, Dr. Golden declined to comment.

With her husband looking sicker by the day, Mrs. Dawson grew frantic. Thinking Mr. Dawson was suffering from a spine infection, she called her dentist, who she knew had back problems. He recommended going to the spine center at Seton Medical Center inDaly City.

On March 6, Mr. Dawson was admitted to Seton delirious and screaming. It was there doctors realized he had a staph infection that had spread through his bloodstream and invaded his entire body. His organs were failing and he was going into septic shock. A nurse told Mrs. Dawson her husband was very sick and might die.

Doctors at Seton began treating Mr. Dawson with massive doses of antibiotics but surmised they wouldn't be able to cure him unless they removed Mr. Dawson's pacemaker, which was encased in bacteria. Mr. Dawson had been carrying the device in his chest since 1995.

The surgery didn't go well. One of the pacemaker's two leads, wires that connect the device to the heart, broke off as it was being extracted and remained stuck in Mr. Dawson's right ventricle. On April 20, Mr. Dawson was transferred to CPMC in San Francisco, a leading cardiac hospital in the region.

The Dawsons wouldn't find out until later, but the six-week stay at Seton was costly. The hospital billed Valero's health plan $1,135,633.84. After negotiating a $283,908.46 discount, Valero's plan paid $851,725.38. More than half of Mr. Dawson's insurance had been used up. A spokeswoman for Seton declined to comment about Mr. Dawson's case, citing the hospital's patient-privacy policy.

At CPMC, Mr. Dawson was operated on again. The plan was to remove the broken pacemaker lead and replace part of Mr. Dawson's infected aortic valve with the valve of a pig. Doctors also needed to repair another heart valve that had been damaged by the infection. Mrs. Dawson was told the odds were very low that her husband would survive the extremely complex operation.

But the surgery was a success, and Mr. Dawson pulled through.

Over the next few weeks, Mr. Dawson fought through various other complications and began to recover. Then on June 18, he went into cardiac arrest during a rehabilitation session. He was rushed into intensive care and revived. Doctors decided he would need another heart operation to implant a defibrillator.

On June 29, Mrs. Dawson says she was leaving the hospital when she was ushered into a small conference room by Ema Beronilla, an employee from CPMC's financial office. She says Ms. Beronilla told her that her husband's insurance had run out and showed her a sheet of paper indicating that they owed the hospital more than $1 million. Valero's health plan had just paid CPMC $553,727.12 for Mr. Dawson's care through May 19 and informed the hospital that he had maxed out his policy. Any additional bills were Mr. Dawson's responsibility.

A spokesman for CPMC, Kevin McCormack, confirms the meeting but says Ms. Beronilla was merely trying to help Mrs. Dawson understand her financial options, not pressuring her to pay the bill.

Ms. Beronilla handed Mrs. Dawson forms for hospital financial assistance and for Medi-Cal, California's Medicaid program. The hospital bill was equivalent to several times the Dawsons' assets, which consisted of equity in their house and a retirement-savings plan. Mrs. Dawson implored Ms. Beronilla not to tell her husband about the bill because she worried it would affect his still-fragile health.

Three days later, while Mrs. Dawson was away, a man came by Mr. Dawson's room and briefed him on the financial situation. Mr. McCormack, the hospital spokesman, says that Ms. Beronilla relayed Mrs. Dawson's request to her supervisor and that she doesn't know who informed Mr. Dawson. "We regret that this happened," he says. Mr. Dawson, always good-humored, took the news in stride.

Later that day, a representative for Health Care Legal Services, an organization CPMC employs to coach uninsured patients on their financial options, called Mr. Dawson's room to enroll him in Medi-Cal. Mrs. Dawson answered the phone and declined, thinking her husband's income was too high to qualify him. She also wanted to review their options with an attorney.

HCLS sent the Dawsons a letter stating that it was returning their account to CPMC "so that they can initiate their collection efforts." Under intense emotional stress, Mrs. Dawson says she interpreted the letter as a threat. An official for HCLS says it wasn't trying to intimidate the Dawsons but merely to educate them about available assistance programs and help them apply for them.

On July 9, a defibrillator was successfully implanted in Mr. Dawson's chest. While her husband resumed his rehabilitation, Mrs. Dawson drove to Palo Alto to see Michael Gilfix, a lawyer who specializes in estate planning. Mr. Gilfix told her Medi-Cal might be willing to cover the hospital bill retroactively. But to qualify, their assets, excluding their home, had to be less than $3,000. That meant they would either have to spend down their retirement-savings plan or donate the money in it to their son, giving up their retirement cushion.

In addition, Medi-Cal would require that the Dawsons contribute any monthly income beyond $900 to their medical bills. Mrs. Dawson decided to rule out Medi-Cal because, with a mortgage on their house, she says there was no way they could live on that small an income.

Valero continued to pay Mr. Dawson his full-time salary until state disability kicked in -- beyond the period it was obligated to, according to the Dawsons. Mr. Dawson was also told his job would be waiting for him, even though Valero could hire someone to replace him after six months, he says. Valero declined to comment on the case, citing its employees' privacy.

CPMC discharged Mr. Dawson on July 26, and Mrs. Dawson drove her husband home. As they entered their house, Mr. Dawson lost his balance and fell. Mrs. Dawson was trying to help him up when the phone rang.

It was Ms. Beronilla, the hospital's financial counselor. Mrs. Dawson says Ms. Beronilla reproached her for declining to meet with HCLS and fill out the Medi-Cal enrollment forms, and told her the hospital would start billing immediately. With her husband still splayed out on the floor, Mrs. Dawson remembers replying: "Do what you have to do."

Ms. Beronilla declined to comment. Mr. McCormack, the CPMC spokesman, confirms the phone call. He says Ms. Beronilla called the Dawsons at home only because she had unsuccessfully tried to get in touch with them before they left the hospital. The purpose of the call, Mr. McCormack adds, was merely to see whether the Dawsons had filled out the hospital's financial-assistance forms.

Effectively uninsured with his Valero coverage exhausted, Mr. Dawson still needed close medical attention. Fortunately, he had served in Vietnam so he was eligible for care from the Department of Veterans Affairs. Mr. Dawson enrolled in the VA system and began attending physical-therapy sessions at a VA hospital in Fresno three times a week. But the VA wasn't obliged to cover his previous medical bills.

Hoping to stall CPMC, Mrs. Dawson sent the hospital two checks for $30. Bills were also piling up from doctors, so Mrs. Dawson also sent them small sums to keep them at bay. The Dawsons weighed whether to declare personal bankruptcy.

Before they made any decision, Mrs. Dawson asked to see an itemized bill from CPMC. When she received it, she was shocked by how much the hospital had marked up inexpensive items like the stockings. CPMC charged Mr. Dawson between $2,225 and $6,675 a night for an oxygen mask to help him breathe while he slept. After he was discharged from the hospital, the Dawsonsrented one from a medical-supply store for $250 a month. Mrs. Dawson resolved to try to negotiate the bill drastically down.

"I do not deny that our charges look insane," says Dr. Pont, CPMC's chief medical officer. But all hospitals operate the same way, he says. "It's the reality of the industry."

Once its operating costs are factored into an item's charge price, Dr. Pont says the hospital marks up that price by threefold to account for the fact that it only collects on average a third of what it bills in any given year. Although the nonprofit hospital reported $123.7 million in operating income last year, Dr. Pont says the money goes to charity care, cutting-edge medical equipment and new facilities to comply with the state's stringent earthquake-safety guidelines. CPMC says it dispensed $5 million in charity care last year and gave another $6 million to community clinics and health centers.

In her quest to know exactly what she was being billed for, Mrs. Dawson also asked the hospital for copies of all her husband's medical records. A copy service used by the hospital called to say the copies would cost $1,030. Mrs. Dawson was outraged. Further angering her, a letter from CPMC's foundation soliciting a donation came in the mail.

Earlier this week, Mrs. Dawson was contacted by a CPMC official with surprising news. The hospital said Mr. Dawson had qualified for financial assistance under its charity-care policy and wrote off his entire bill. Asked why the Dawsons hadn't been told they could qualify for charity care before a reporter contacted the hospital, CPMC said Mrs. Dawson never gave it the opportunity to explain its policy to her.

Told at one point that he would never walk again, Mr. Dawson is looking forward to going back to work at Valero in January. An avid car-racing fan, he recently went to see his son officiate at a race.

Write to John Carreyrou at john.carreyrou@wsj.com4


URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119610495315004214.html

Hyperlinks in this Article:
(1) http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-enlargePic07.html
(2)http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/James_Dawson_medicalletter.pdf
(3) http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/James_Dawson_donation.pdf
(4) mailto:john.carreyrou@wsj.com
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MasterBlaster
11-30-2007, 09:24 PM
Cliff's Notes that shizznit!

stehansen
11-30-2007, 09:31 PM
Well at least it had a happy ending. He's healthy enough to return to work.

sotc
11-30-2007, 09:47 PM
wild!

JonnyHart
11-30-2007, 09:52 PM
I'm a little confused, what is the connection between Mr. Dawson's unfortunate mishap and the nurses wanting to strike?

Frans
11-30-2007, 10:48 PM
I'm a little confused, what is the connection between Mr. Dawson's unfortunate mishap and the nurses wanting to strike?

IF, and I say IF, the insurance companies are allowed to continue, then folks will continue to receive, or not, minimal health care.

The nurses are just the tip of the iceburg. They are the ones who have to negotiate between folks with health care, and the insurance industries desire to limit health care. Or, to wheel folks out to the street if their health care insurance does not pay.

The nurses are striking to expand the amount of nurses per shift, and to increase their wages.

Old Monkey
11-30-2007, 11:51 PM
We have Blue Shield and are one long hospital stay away from being ruined.

Newfie
12-01-2007, 12:35 AM
They are the ones who have to negotiate between folks with health care, and the insurance industries desire to limit health care. Or, to wheel folks out to the street if their health care insurance does not pay.

The nurses are striking to expand the amount of nurses per shift, and to increase their wages.

I'd beg to differ with the first part. Doctors are the ones that fight to get things covered. Nurses are simply the ones that page doctors in the middle of the night to administer care.

Nurses are pretty well compensated as a whole for the job they do. In most instances though, there is definitely a need for more nurses on duty at any given time.

As for hospitals padding bills, that is the same old crock of shit that it has always been. Can you buy the special support stockings for less? Absolutley! But for you $12 did someone put them on you, check on you,
every hour, change them blah ,blah,blah, all on down the line. It goes along with the $8 tylenol or the $200 room charge ( which most people pay at a hotel for far less service).The fact of the matter is that most hospitals and health care delivery systems are in danger of going bankrupt because the government requires the uninsured to be treated and insurance companies pay far less than the services rendered cost. They can't magically pull money out of their ass.

Seems like the nurses in this case have taken the low road in their tactics to get paid. Poor compensation from insurance companies definitely makes it difficult for facilties to staff properly, but lets lplace the blame appropriately.


Too bad Mr. Dawson hid his "calluses" under band-aids for 9 months instead of acting like an adult and seeking educated professional help. No better than the jackass homeowner ignoring his dying tree and then trying to fix it with his Wildthing and then getting in over his head when it was almost too late.

Newfie
12-01-2007, 12:38 AM
I know how to fix it.... lets sue someone and make it all their fault.

Old Monkey
12-01-2007, 12:41 AM
The cost of healthcare is rising faster than the rate of inflation. Our insurance is due to go up 25% this year. If you are a small business that is an unsupportable rate of increase.

Newfie
12-01-2007, 12:43 AM
The cost of healthcare is rising faster than the rate of inflation. Our insurance is due to go up 25% this year. If you are a small business that is an unsupportable rate of increase.

And my last post is the greatest contributor to that dilemna next to the uninsured drain on the system. More drains open than taps filling the tub, with most of the drains contributing nothing to the sytem other than draining dollars.

Old Monkey
12-01-2007, 12:47 AM
I think there are many factors influencing the cost. None are easy fixes. Something needs to be done.

No_Bivy
12-01-2007, 06:10 AM
I hate health insurance, they deny a lot of stuff. Make you sound like you are scamming when you make a claim. Who is the best canindate for health care reform,.....Obama?

Old Monkey
12-01-2007, 08:46 AM
I don't think any of their plans are realistic. No one person can fix the problem. They need to get the whole group together, insurers, health care providers, pharmaceutical companies, etc, and work as a group to bring some balance back to things.

RIVERRAT
12-01-2007, 10:59 AM
I don't think any of their plans are realistic. No one person can fix the problem. They need to get the whole group together, insurers, health care providers, pharmaceutical companies, etc, and work as a group to bring some balance back to things.
Darin my liberal friend, I agree!!
It is a tuff thing.It wont get fixed overnight & goverment provided healthcare is not a workable answer.

stehansen
12-01-2007, 12:27 PM
The hospitals are getting a little more aggressive about collecting. My neighbor has a buddy who lost his job and his insurance then had some kidney stone thing and owed 20 K and the hospital put a lein on his home.

TC3
12-01-2007, 01:28 PM
I applied for state aide for medical. My children are already covered by BCBS & do not need addtional help.
I was forced by the state to apply for ALL of us, though I clearly stated that it was only me I wanted coverage for ???
I got denied coverage >>> we already had BCBS ???
Frustrating beyond belief.
Purchasing my own insurance was quoted at $480 a month... for a policy that read like Greek & covered virtually nothing.
Thanks.

Frans
12-01-2007, 04:49 PM
TC3 is a single mom, who works trees for a living. AND she is an American. So why does she get less coverage than your local congressman?


Just curious why all the talk about the 'best' way to have health coverage, when it is clear to see that an American, does not have the same coverage as an American government employee...








It sickens me when I hear all this patriotic noise from our elected members, THEY have the best health care in the world!

so any discussion is academic to them, as they are not involved.

Old Monkey
12-01-2007, 04:59 PM
I don't think everyone is entitled to good health care by the accident of birth. I think providing health care up front is cheaper than paying for emergency care of the uninsured, which we all end up footing the bill for anyway. Its that old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Skwerl
12-01-2007, 05:11 PM
That might work if health care needs remained constant regardless of payment method. But we're talking about humans, not widgets. 'Free' health care paid for by taxes will equate to an enormous increase in demand from those who want to be sure and get their 'fair share'. A runny nose or scratched elbow all of a sudden turn into medical emergencies requiring immediate attention by a doctor since "It's free anyway". And how will the healthcare system handle this increased demand, especially considering that these formerly free market employees (doctors and nurses) will now be getting paid by the government? Do you think their pay will increase or decrease? And will that result in more doctors or less doctors to care for all of us?

No_Bivy
12-01-2007, 05:19 PM
one war = billlions = could have been health insurance= fock

Why don't we wage war on this issue?:/:

Old Monkey
12-01-2007, 05:21 PM
OK then what solutions do you see. I know that torte reform is needed but that won't reduce cost as much as a lot of folks think.


edit: The war billions shouldn't have been spent in the first place. Its that darn Chinese credit card that will get us into trouble.

No_Bivy
12-01-2007, 05:26 PM
heck if I know......higher taxes? I aint blaming, but I get pissed about docs/hospitals/pharm co. fees, they are all making a killing. Including BCBS....

Old Monkey
12-01-2007, 05:31 PM
I know what you mean. I feel your pain monthly. If I made more money I would drop my health insurance, get a cataclysmic policy and establish a health savings account.

gf beranek
12-01-2007, 05:43 PM
Frans, Sole Man

Thanks for keeping these posts about medical costs up and running wild. Like the "Sicko" Thread. It's realitly baby. right now I'm being taken to the collections for not paying the med bills for my injury that the defendents lawyers claim I'm liable for. Haven't worked for 7 months.

Shitty thing is, if I try and go back to work they will have video cameras on me and it will bolster their side. It's all "F" up.

TC3
12-01-2007, 05:48 PM
Ask the Canuks about their medical system... it's atleast a 'something' to know you can go to the emergency room / doctor's office if you need it ???
Every sniffle & fart ?!? C'mon !!! Socialised medicine is NOT evil !

RIVERRAT
12-01-2007, 07:01 PM
I don't think everyone is entitled to good health care by the accident of birth. Darin, you swallow a Rush Limbaugh pill? You sure your feeling all right?

JamesTX
12-01-2007, 07:07 PM
My French in-laws rave about their socialised medical system. And, to tell the truth, it seems that they've received very good care (and very timely too) since I've known them.

stehansen
12-01-2007, 08:48 PM
I don't know if it is fair to compare health care today with health care of the 1960's or some other time period. Our care is much more advanced than it was 40 years ago. The guy in the article that Frans posted probably wouldn't have been around to get diabetes because his heart problem that necessitated the pace maker would have already killed him. So my point is I guess that at least he is around and is actually healthy enough to return to work, and that is much better than being dead. I think also another point in the article is that lifetime caps need to be raised. Ya think! Another point is that hospitals charge private payers way more than they do health insurance companies or the govt. This is crap, a private payer is at a disadvantage in this situation because he has already received the health care and at the time he was sick or injured most likely leaving him/her somewhat vunerable and at the mercy of his doctor's advice.

Frans
12-02-2007, 12:29 AM
I honestly dont think we can look to our gov. reps. for the answer.

For them, it is all academic. They have the best health care in the world, so for them it is just a mind game.

Fact is, gov. sponsored health care is NOT socialized medicine, it is socialized medical cost management. Same as our police force, ambulance service, etc.etc.


i read here alot of 'pros' & 'cons', toward the idea of changing our health care industry.
I would say if you are the one footing the bill, you are for changing the present system.
If you are being paid for by an employer or the gov. , then you are against changing the present system.

What gets me, is the loud talk about patriotism. Patriotism means to be for the country you live in and support.

I dont see alot of actual patriotism in the congress or our 'representatives'. Or for that matter with most of the folks I am in contact with.

Just alot of finger pointing, endless debate, and arguing.

Meanwhile, Americans are living shorter lives, our health care system is broken, and just about every other segment of our society is sub standard compared to our own standards as well as every other country in the world. Minus the truly wretched third world countries.

But since when did we have to compare ourselves to say, Uganda?

I think this whole 'debate' about health care is bullshit. I also think that many of these problems could be easily taken care of if our gov. actually cared about the American people.

No, don't ask me for the solution, do I look like a congressman, or some kind of brainiac? No, I am a working guy who pays through the nose for damm near nothing. Oh, and the rates are rising every year. Yea, I am bitter, to the tune of 575.00 bucks a month bitter.


"While Rome burned, congress argued..."

-or something like that-
--Shakespeare (?)

squisher
12-02-2007, 12:42 AM
Damn :( . Health care is the basics, without it you could die. No matter what people say down there about how hard we're taxed up here or this or that know this:

A fellow I know who makes very little money, pays nothing for healthcare here, got hit by a car last night, he broke his leg a ambulance took him to the hospital, he will receive full medical care, the whole nine yards, and it will not cost him a single penny. Nothing, notta, zip, zero.

I don't feel our system is perfect by any means, but at this point and time it still works.

Old Monkey
12-02-2007, 12:59 AM
I would trade our system for yours. No question about it. Nothing is perfect, all you can try to do is better. We aren't trying to do better. We aren't doing anything but argue while the problems get worse.

Frans
12-02-2007, 10:05 AM
I think their is an attitude that, 'if you are not smart enough to make enough money to pay for health care, then you deserve to not have it'.

Point is, even when you pay for health care, the costs keep skyrocketing and if you max out your coverage, you are s.o.l. and get booted out.

The ideal of the 'american hard working family' is to work hard, pay your bills, and be able to afford such things as a roof over your head and a reasonable standard of living.

But if your health care costs just by themselves takes away that house, and strips a family of everything they have, isn't that wrong?

Their is a reason that the forclosures rate has skyrocketed throughout America, and that the percentage of Americans living debt free is a tiny one.

Time and time again, I read reports that most Americans are living one paycheck away from being bankrupt.

squisher
12-02-2007, 03:01 PM
And I see Canada following that trend, I live in alot of debt myself. But as I've mentioned before I only indebt myself for things that are going to make money. Either way I'm in the game bigtime, and somedays I really wonder if it's all gonna be worth it or if I should just sell off and move into the boonies and be done with the craziness. Not a easy call to make espescially with a family.

Imo it's not right that a person can get sick/ill and lose everything they have worked for their whole life, that's not right. Your government has failed you, the only people your system is working for is the super rich and for people who are lucky enough to not get sick/injured.

stehansen
12-02-2007, 05:56 PM
I would trade our system for yours. No question about it. Nothing is perfect, all you can try to do is better. We aren't trying to do better. We aren't doing anything but argue while the problems get worse.

Argue is what congress does OM. It's pretty much the only thing they do. But it's necessary IMO. It's the only way these differences can be worked out. As I understand it all the founding documents weren't just written out and approved. The Declaration of Independence being the exception. They argued at length over every word. Have you ever read the Federalist Papers? They go on for freaking forever about every little thing and phrase. I would have shot my self with glee if I was one of the Founding Fathers.

Do the doctors and other medical people in Canada work as govt. employees or are they contractors?

Frans
12-02-2007, 09:48 PM
Do the doctors and other medical people in Canada work as govt. employees or are they contractors?

Just about everyone who effects the working folk are 'contractors' of the gov. these days.

squisher
12-03-2007, 07:04 PM
The nurses are employees for sure and I think the doctors kind of work like contractors, there's a billing structure/rate thingy for them I beleive. All I know for certain is nurses do well and doctors are rich. Lots of doctors around here live on the lake, on the lake in a nice house starts at about 1.5m and goes up from there.

Old Monkey
12-03-2007, 08:32 PM
Are there any shortages of doctors and nurses?

Newfie
12-05-2007, 06:01 PM
Are there any shortages of doctors and nurses?

There is in Massachusetts for sure because of the large percentage of "managed" care here. Hard to recruit doctors to practice here, because of piss poor compensation. Oddly enough, the ones who do come to practice here are from places like Canada and the UK where social medicine is the norm.

squisher
12-05-2007, 07:28 PM
Are there any shortages of doctors and nurses?

I was just reading a article in the paper that was saying that they are going to try and get more agressive at recruiting nurses. It's a trade-off here, certainly doctors or nurses could earn more down in the states but most who are here are here because they like the lifestyle. Like I said all of the doctors I've known are not just well off they are rich, I guess it boils down to how rich they want/need to be.

Again I'll say healthcare and the availability of it is not even a concern for me at this point in time. If anyone is sick they can just go to the doctor, imo there's alot to be said for that. I just worry about escalating costs.

For all of you who say, oh well we have got the best doctors and nurses because they are paid so much. Think about it, they are paid so much and the average american can't afford healthcare hmmmm.

And like I posted in another thread, went to the doctor today. Walk in with no appointment 15 minutes seen the doc out the door. No charge.

I'm not trying to sound rude or anti-american (I've been to the states and actually have found you americans to be alot friendlier than most Canadians) but I'd be scared to live down there knowing that if myself or my loved ones became ill I'd be screwed.

Wagnaw
12-05-2007, 08:05 PM
The main reason I'm for publicly funded healthcare is funding for prevention. Being a pre-med student, I am always in contact with people who work in the industry, and the huge complaint is prevention funding. For instance, here in the States, sewage treatment plants do not filter hormones and chemicals such as estrogen (which can lead to children with both sex organs) because there's no funding due to the fact that there's no money to be made by cleaning up the water. However, in Europe, where the gov't pays for health care, all sewage systems are set up to filter these pollutants because the gov't know that prevention is going to save EVERYONE money. The same motivation is seen in work force safety.

I think that if the gov't payed for health care, more money would go to protecting people and protecting the environment that houses the people. As disheartening as it sounds, there is alot less effort toward keeping people from getting sick when a company can make billions of dollars on a pill that corrects any number of preventable diseases.

stehansen
12-05-2007, 08:25 PM
It's not really "no charge" you are either paying through taxes or someone else is paying.

squisher
12-05-2007, 08:33 PM
But still it's no charge as I see it other than the $96/month I pay into medical. People cry about all of the taxes up here, I got smart and have beat the taxman at his own game. Despite our heavy taxation and what not I've still managed to amass quite a bit of personal wealth and that's from starting with zip, zero, no family money property or nothing.

So I would say for me medical costs are zip diddily and moreso my point was that say I came down with some type of serious disease/ailment all of the treatments I would need wouldn't cost me anything, the collective us as Canadians would all pay for it for me, just as I'm sure I'm doing for others right now. This would be a good thing no? Helping out my fellow citizens who are undergoing a hardtime.

Wagnaw
12-05-2007, 08:37 PM
THAT"S THE THING!!! Everyone pays for socialized medicine! Thus, the whole population is more likely to make a concerted effort toward public health, preventative medicine will get more funding, and environmental protection will get more funding. It's really ashame because the U.S. has some of the best doctors and scientists in the world, but many of them are in the private sector because there's no funding anywhere else.

Sure... government here throws money at public health initiatives, but sadly, alot of the money is for PR, which makes budgeting studies and projects really difficult.

squisher
12-05-2007, 08:42 PM
I am in no way trying to say that our system is perfect. But it struck me by reading the opening post that given the current situation set-up you guys have that someone may have to make a really hard decision if they are sick or ill.

What I mean is say I found out I had some type of cancer and it could be treated but doing so would mean financial ruin for me and my family. That would be a really hard decision to make and it's not fair imo. I couldn't imagine having to make that call.

Wagnaw
12-05-2007, 08:42 PM
Just out of curiosity, are there any unusual repercussions for someone who gets hurt at work because of carelessness? Or are people just way pickier about who does certain work? I know Germany has alot of regulations surrounding tree work because it is so dangerous, which again is an example of a nation looking out for it's citizens because the nation is paying the medical bills. Thus, gov't has a vested interest in the health of its citizens.

Frans
12-05-2007, 08:48 PM
I said it before, and I will say it again.

IT IS NOT SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE.

What it is, is socialized health care cost management. THAT is what the U.S. needs, IMO.

The pharmaceutical companies, and the 'for profit' hospitals are the ones making out on this current set-up.

The American people are the losers.

squisher
12-05-2007, 08:48 PM
Just out of curiosity, are there any unusual repercussions for someone who gets hurt at work because of carelessness? Or are people just way pickier about who does certain work?

The onus falls entirely on the employer as to proper training and documentation of that training. Even with that(proper training and documentation) the employee is covered 100% no matter how stupid they were being. Here if you are hurt at work you are covered by compo(worksafe BC) and actually because of a tax break and up taking home more than if you are working. That sounds a bit messed up but it's true, I've never been on compo but know people who have been. Also if you are permanently injured or disabled you can get retraining or lump sum payouts for pain and suffering. Even if the employer doesn't have compo coverage if you are an employee compo will cover you and deal with the employer afterwards themselves. Employees are pretty well protected. So yes as an employer it's in your best interest not to have dumbasses working for you.

Wagnaw
12-05-2007, 08:57 PM
Ok... Thanks. Yeah, I've thought alot about how free health care would work in the context of persuading employers to keep employee health in the foreground. I could see a public health system where health care is free to all citizens, but that part of business taxes there may be a sliding scale where safety records can affect the tax rate for businesses. I suppose it would be kind of like buying workers comp coverage but state run. Thus, incentive for employers to keep employees safe.

Skwerl
12-05-2007, 09:00 PM
But then you get into a situation where government minions get to dictate to you what your employees can and cannot do. And guess what??? The typical government pencil pusher will immediately freak out if you were to suggest that you wanted your employee to climb trees with a chainsaw. Nope, that just isn't safe and we cannot allow that. No-sir-eee, you can't do that.

squisher
12-05-2007, 09:01 PM
That is exactly how our compo works, you get a discount for a clean record and it's all variable with time of no claims vs risk of job vs how much payroll you bill.

rumination
12-05-2007, 09:02 PM
Burnham climbs trees with a chainsaw, and he works for the government.

squisher
12-05-2007, 09:04 PM
Brian I've met with our local compo officer in regards to my treework and it's all about industry accepted safe work practices, basically due dilligence. Compo will come out and look over jobsites and will fine people for doing stupid things. In my eleven years in the bush I was never on site for any fines, a few written warnings but we were never fined.

sotc
12-05-2007, 11:20 PM
then the gov may say "you cant eat at mc donalds more than once a month"
or "you can only have one beer a night" "were footing the bill so we can force this"

squisher
12-06-2007, 07:53 AM
Maybe for a vast majority of people the government should do this?:D

JK'ing they don't do that here, no one in their right mind would get between a Canadian and his beer.

sotc
12-06-2007, 09:09 AM
:lol: