200T no one can fix local

[woodworkingboy]

No, but I will though. Thanks, Al. It starts and idles fine, and will run well, then suddenly starts making a weird popping sound and the revs won't go up. I think the heat expands something and then there is a leak. Your idea could have merit in this case it seems.

Just the carb I want to install is currently available on ebay, but the seller won't sell international. I don't have a problem with that, shipping abroad requires a little more effort, and perhaps someone has had trouble with payments or something, but now ebay has a thing going where the default for not selling international doesn't allow contact either. A lot of sellers don't know that. I've had good luck asking people to ship international when they didn't want to at first. You can also get a freight forwarding address where the item gets shipped to a location within the states and then gets forwarded by another party unrelated to the seller. No sweat for the seller, just like a domestic sale. Why ebay would discourage communications between a seller and potential buyer, it makes no sense to me. You can't bid or make contact, and not a matter subject to consideration. If a seller was adamant about not selling international, all they have to do is say that they won't respond to communications from abroad, at their listing. Instead, ebay acts like they have to mother the thing over a bunch of adolescents whose pee pees are just starting to grow. Pretty controlling and dumb.....

[Al Smith]

Flea bay keeps changing their policy every time there's a full moon .

On that carb which I still don't fully understand evidentley there is an accelerater pump .Probabley because as a trim saw the 200's go from idle to WOT about a zillion times a day .From what I gather that can be the source of most problems .

The Loctite deal worked for the most part on both of my 200's but on the super bee I still have to fiddle with the carb at times .Weather it's actually the carb or just the nature of a souped up saw to be fussy like that I can't say .It's only just an RCH of the high speed between running just good or running super .

From what I gather that little carb is a pretty high priced item if it has to be replaced .

[woodworkingboy]

Some of the carbs that will work on the 020 and the 200 don't have the accelerator pump, is my understanding. They have phased out some of the carb models, so possibly without the pump is no longer available unless old stock.

I did work on a 020 that had a Walbro carb, and it ran very well. Possibly the first series when that model saw was marketed. All the others I have seen used a Zama, and didn't they keep that up when the MS 200 was introduced?

[Al Smith]

I'm not exactly sure what the deal with Zama is .Some time ago the company was Japanese owned now I think owned by Stihl and based out of China .

Hard to follow .Just like Tillotson which at one time was 85 miles north of me in Toledo Ohio ,now in county Kerry Ireland .

As far as that model of the C1Q Zama I'm pretty sure it was a Stihl design .Whatever the reason for the accelerater pump was I can only speculate .Perhaps because of the design of the 020/200 which those enormous transfer ports they could load up with out the accelerater pump .With such large ports you would have to have the low speed jet set rather rich to avoid almost stalling out on spool up without the added boost of the pump .

As it is those little hot rod saws carbon up pretty easily all by themselves if they idle very long .That's the only reason I can think up with my pea mind why they ever needed the pump .

[Cut4fun]

Where are you at Japan? I've shipped 084 parts to Japan before. If you gift paypal me the $ to cover cost of purchase and ship to me and then ship to you I can do this. Gifting paypal keeps them from taking fees from me.
Shoot me a link of carb etc if you decide to do this.

[woodworkingboy]

Thanks Kevin, for the kindly offer! I'm going to try Al's fix it method today, see where it gets me. Either way I will send you a pm.

[woodworkingboy]

Al, what is your method for using the Loctite around the welch plug? Do you try and just run a bead around the edge and have it sink in, or are you referring to installing a new plug with sealant on it? Quite a large plug on the carb I have. Thanks.

[Al Smith]

I used a q-tip like a little paint brush .Kind of pulled out a little bit of fiber so it came to a point .You have to be carefull because there are a few vents or jets of some kind you certainly don't want to plug with the loctite .I just sealed around the welch plug and what looked to be a crack or flaw in the casting .

I've got pics on the other computer I'll put on tomorrow after the techno weinie fixs the thing .

There are basically two types of design of the fuel chamber from what I've seen .One design has that large triangular shaped plug .

[woodworkingboy]

Thanks, appreciate the help.

[Magnus]

I had several here this year among these the 200 from hell. I can't figure out what is wrong but it leans out after a running a bit.
Carb is rebuilt, tested and even changed. It is tight, no leaking any were and I ordered a new ignition in hope that might be it.
I changed 3-4 modules this year and they all acted differently.
Normally they are dead when module break, but these still had life in them. I find it odd as it is several in a short period.

[Cobleskill]

Could a crank seal leak only when it is hot?

[gf beranek]

Vacuum leaks are generally easy to diagnose and find. I'm sure temperature and expansion of the cases can affect such a leak. Electronic modules shouldn't be ruled out because they can certainly go wacky when they get hot too.

[Magnus]

It is no leak. New seals, no cracks, passed test both hot and cold...

The newer module is the more way's it can act up.

Modules with limiter and actively adjusted timing can really put bugs in the saws. They act strangely and inconsequently.
This makes diagnose much trickier.
Add electronically controlled carbs in the mix and you stand there with a guessing game!

[Al Smith]

Here's a picture of the two styles of the carbs that I know about .There might be more for all I know .The other pic shows the q-tip deal plus the fact I did gob some red loctite in one of the holes I had to clean out before it set up .

I'm not saying this is the magic cure all but it did improve those carbs .I do however on occasion need to give them a little tweek .

[Al Smith]

Before I forget .A real good sealant that has been used for years is fingernail polish .Doesn't make any difference what color .This goes back to the days of Permatex number 2 and Indian head gasket shellac .I know,I lived them .:)

[Cobleskill]

Seal-All too, but I think alcohol makes them not so effective anymore.

[Al Smith]

Maybe the finger nail polish but red loctite will stand up to freon .Ethanol I doubt would faze it a bit .Now you should let it dry for a day before it's put in service .

Again before I forget .If anybody tries this it might not be a bad idea to blow the carb down with air then use acetone to clean the carb .

[Cobleskill]

I haven't tried the loctite. Whatever Zama was using was a flop. Acetone sounds good.

[Al Smith]

I'm not actually certain it was leaking around the welch plugs .

I had sent a carb to Eddie at Stihl in Va Beach that they tested .If I recall that one had some internal leaks but not due to a flaw or a crack in the carb casting nor around the plugs .

I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about the internals of this carb with that accelerater pump .It's a tricky little rascal that either works good or causes you fits .

[oscar4883]

I had several here this year among these the 200 from hell. I can't figure out what is wrong but it leans out after a running a bit.
Carb is rebuilt, tested and even changed. It is tight, no leaking any were and I ordered a new ignition in hope that might be it.
I changed 3-4 modules this year and they all acted differently.
Normally they are dead when module break, but these still had life in them. I find it odd as it is several in a short period.

Tank vent maybe. The older style tank vents where worse IMO. Older being the vent with the white cap with a black top. The newer style vents, the type that the vent and fuel line are an assembly, are better. Had a couple this year that I worked on that needed a new vent. Crack the gas cap next time it starts acting wonky and see if it helps.

[Magnus]

If you use shellac or nail polish here the crap in the gas that is aggressive eats it up in hrs. Alcohol is not that aggressive.

[Al Smith]

I haven't used nail polish for years myself .However on some of the real old saws with Tilley HL carbs that stuff was used as a sealant and in some cases a thread locker . In rebuilding these things some 50 years old I've never seen any deteriation of the stuff . Then again maybe finger nail polish isn't what it used to be .

[woodworkingboy]

Reading around in the forums about carb sealant, some folks claim good results with the nail polish, some say the gas degrades it. Could be the additives as Magnus alludes to. I tried some Locktite sealant around the plug, the larger one as shown in Al's photo. They have a number of different ones out there, and I think the one I used may only dry under anaerobic conditions (no air), because it doesn't seem to want to harden. Maybe it did down in the crevice? I wiped off the excess and put a layer of liquid gasket over the whole plug. I know the gasket goop is impervious to both gas and heat, so if there is a leak around the plug, it should fix it...I hope.

[Al Smith]

Red loctite must be aerobic else it would set up in the bottle .

The stuff we use at work comes in one gallon bottles .Spill one of those and you talk about a mess ,wow .

The Loctite 5900 which is used in place of gaskets comes in 55 gallon drums and is pumped at 3000 PSI .They blew a line apart once and pumped the whole 55 gallons on the floor .Had to scoop it up with a shovel .A drum full of that stuff is thousands of dollars .

[Al Smith]

Oh say let me interject a thought here .Loctite is a product which is used internationally about like WD-40 it's everywhere .You can do a Google of Loctite and get the low down of what a praticular product is compatable with or is not plus the application recomendations .

[woodworkingboy]

I tried to look it up, but the official description didn't say anything about aerobic or anaerobic, and also nothing about resistance to gas. I think the stuff I used is more purposely a thread lock than a gap sealant. The strongest of the three types my local home center sells. The package says set up in ten minutes and 24 hours to properly harden. Even though it isn't hard after twenty four hours on the surface of the welch plug, after ten minutes coating a 1/4 inch bolt and putting on a nut, I couldn't budge the nut with pliers and muscle after ten minutes.

[Al Smith]

It's kind of odd stuff .If it's applied in a thin layer such as thread locker in ten minutes you couldn't budge it with a pipe wrench .If you pour it out in a small puddle or in a container it stays liquid for days .Gets thicker of course over time but not hard .Actually you can't hold it in a puddle straight out of the botlle because it runs like water .

For repairs on the engines at work they keep some in a dish with a little brush in case the machines with the "spinners " are malfunctioning .All the plugs in those aluminum block engines are sealed with red .They used to use blue on cast iron engines .

Blue is okay for water/anti freeze but not so good on gasoline .

[Cobleskill]

Loctite makes a threadlock for fasteners bigger than 1". It is listed on the back of blister packs. I went to NAPA and bearing houses trying to get some. Good luck. The power steering valve assembly for a tractor came off. It was on the end of the steering shaft, down inside a housing. I had to make a special spanner to tighten it. Tried the dealer - he said they never had one come off. Anyhow, I didn't want to do the job again, hence the looking for special loctite. I ended up using the regular red.

[woodworkingboy]

Good info. The stuff I used was red. Hopefully it hardened in the gap even though the puddle remained soft.

[Al Smith]

I'll get the number of the stuff at work .I know it will lock bigger than 1 inch .There's some other stuff they use to hold bushing in with also that will fill larger gaps but 30 years ago it was 45 bucks for a tiny little bottle .

Fact I have some shrink fit compound that probabley will work .I'll get the number later on today .

[Marc-Antoine]

I have had troubles too with the 200T's carb and his accelerator pump.
I had good success, so I made a tutorial for the french arboriste forum about a repair technique.
But there is a lot of to translate, so I need some more time. Coming soon.

[Bermy]

I have a carb from an 026 that has a crack in the white plastic right angle nipple that the fuel hose goes onto (I think, since its a year or so since I took it apart and never got back to it) Can I fix that crack with loctite?
The saw always used to cut out on idle once it got warm, and would be a bear to restart, then would not restart until you let it sit for a while.

[woodworkingboy]

Fiona, Loctite makes many products, so you need one specifically designed for bonding plastics. I think that Epoxy will generally have good resistance to gasoline.

[Cobleskill]

There are so many kinds of plastic it is tough to know what to use. I tried a loctite product to fix a plastic mirror housing. No good. Welding seems to be the most sure fire fix. The part is obsolete?

[woodworkingboy]

I sealed the carb welch plug and it didn't solve the saw not wanting to rev properly problem. I took off the starter cover to look at the impulse line again :|:, rotated the flywheel and there was a little ticking sound as it went around. It turned out the magnet gap was non-existent, the magnets actually making very slight contact. Now that will mess things up, but the start up and idle was fine, so it never occurred. Much ado about nothing.... :|:

[gf beranek]

that's it?

[woodworkingboy]

Apparently. When it wouldn't rev it made a weird popping ignition sound. Considering it now, like the fuel building up but not firing during every cycle. Possibly the sound a tip off for such a malady?

[Al Smith]

Well I'll be damned

[woodworkingboy]

Wonder what happens when the magnets actually touch and the saw still runs. Firing out of sync?

[CurSedVoyce]

Pretty much.
Not to mention that little tink tink tink when they hit..

[gf beranek]

It's a module thing again. Dang!

Must of loosened up or re-set itself in fall or drop. That's not very common.

[Magnus]

I had a couple saws here that had ignition out of place, even loose.
One 51 that one screw was missing and the other on the way out. With exception of a sound that made my skin curl, it ran ok.
I don't think there is a drop needed to loosen them, vibrations will fix that unless they are set with something good.

I put new lock washers if I have bolt out.

[gf beranek]

It's been so long I can vaguely remember setting the clearance for the mag with a feeler gauge and adjusting the points to set the timing. or something like that.

[Cut4fun]

I have a carb from an 026 that has a crack in the white plastic right angle nipple that the fuel hose goes onto (I think, since its a year or so since I took it apart and never got back to it) Can I fix that crack with loctite?
The saw always used to cut out on idle once it got warm, and would be a bear to restart, then would not restart until you let it sit for a while.

I had this happen on a 034. I removed the white plastic and ran a piece of fuel line inside the stihl fuel line and attached to the new line to metal nipple that was left in carb. I used small zip ties on the ends snugged down, just in case. Saw is still running cutting firewood without any problems of the redneck fix.

[top_notch]

My 200 is acting up again. Took it to the shop in town. Stihl dealer, but not much of a mechanic, at least on 200's. He had the saw for a month and figured nothing out. Said the carb was fine and needed to order a part to seal off the exhaust to pressure test it. Waited and waited, then finally just went and picked up the saw (never got pressure tested). Mechanic thought it had an air leak, so maybe I'll start replacing seals...not sure what else to do. The raising the fuel lever trick worked for a while then it started getting flooded. Rebuilt the carb too, minus the welch plugs. Not sure what else to do. PITA!

[Magnus]

They can be tricky that is for sure.
Saws is getting worse each model that come out. Harder to test and more of guessing game...

[Bermy]

I had this happen on a 034. I removed the white plastic and ran a piece of fuel line inside the stihl fuel line and attached to the new line to metal nipple that was left in carb. I used small zip ties on the ends snugged down, just in case. Saw is still running cutting firewood without any problems of the redneck fix.

Cool, thanks! I'll try that...

[woodworkingboy]

The needle seat could be worn on the 200 carb. Pressure testing in a glass of water will determine, or just a pressure test to see if it is leaking in the first place. It should hold 10 psi.

It takes only a couple minutes to remove the carb on the 020 or 200, why a shop that can't solve the problem, won't stick on a good test carb to see what the results are, is beyond me. Loan it to the customer that way for a week. "Duh.....we can't fix it', does absolutely no good.

[Al Smith]

The only thing I can thing of with the flywheel hitting the magnets is perhaps it fired the "trigger voltage " too soon . Weather that's it or not,don't really know .

Most coil air gaps are 12 thou give or take . I won't get into points because almost noone uses them except old coots like myself with antiques .

[woodworkingboy]

Don't you mean old coots with antique 036s?

[Al Smith]

---or old Macs too I suppose .

[Cut4fun]

Cool, thanks! I'll try that...

Found a pic of it before I added the zip tie

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g289/doemaster789/034036/034036.jpg

[Bermy]

That's exactly what mine looks like, just the split is on the other side...
Do you think that it explains the terrible idle, then cut out, then not starting for a while?
I've heard 026's can 'pool' some gas on idle then cut out when given throttle again...like a flood situation I guess, but the split is what I came across when I started poking around with the carb.

[Marc-Antoine]

I have had troubles too with the 200T's carb and his accelerator pump.
I had good success, so I made a tutorial for the french arboriste forum about a repair technique.
But there is a lot of to translate, so I need some more time. Coming soon.

Well, not so soon as I wanted, but now it's ready. I'll open a new thread for it.

[oscar4883]

That's exactly what mine looks like, just the split is on the other side...
Do you think that it explains the terrible idle, then cut out, then not starting for a while?
I've heard 026's can 'pool' some gas on idle then cut out when given throttle again...like a flood situation I guess, but the split is what I came across when I started poking around with the carb.

That nipple cracking can lead to the symptoms you are having. The saw will run lean at times due to air being taken in. The 026, like any other saw, can pool fuel like you say as well. A slight tweak of the idle, or slight leaning out of the low side should do the trick.

[Al Smith]

I think that saw C4 Fun has shown might be the 034/036 I had .To tell the trutrh if it is I never paid much attention because I only ran it for a few minutes at a time,several times so it never got hot enough to lean out .

However it seems among my cache of saws I have several leakers so that might be a point to ponder that until now I never gave much thought to .Hmm wonder how I missed that .:? Live and learn .